Wendell Pierce says there’s a joke actors have about the five stages of their careers:
“There’s ‘Who is Wendell Pierce?’ ‘Get me Wendell Pierce.’ ‘Get me someone like Wendell Pierce.’ ‘Get me a younger Wendell Pierce.’ And then the last and final and fifth stage is: ‘Who is Wendell Pierce?’” he says.
After starring roles on The Wire and Treme, and a 2023 Tony Award nomination as the first Black actor to play Willy Loman in the Broadway revival of Death of a Salesman, Pierce is working as hard as ever. He says he’s motivated by the “ticking clock of mortality” — but also by the desire to challenge himself as an actor.
Though many entertainers shy away from the label “journeyman actor,” Pierce proudly embraces the term: “It’s not just to go from job to job, but [to] be intentional about the jobs I take,” he says. “I try to do the trifecta, as I call it — television and film and theater — every year.”
Pierce currently plays a captain on CBS’ Elsbeth and a CIA officer in the film Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan: Ghost War. He’s also starring in the Shakespeare Theatre Company production of Othello in Washington, D.C.
Pierce likens tackling Shakespeare to detective work. First, he says, there’s the “mining the text for all of its understanding and everything that Shakespeare is telling you not only about the characters, but how to portray them and what’s happening.”
More than that, though, there’s also the emotional aspect of connecting with the character — and the physical and vocal strength required of a three-hour production. “The challenge is physical, it’s intellectual, and it’s emotional, and that’s the great thing about doing Shakespeare, and even specifically doing Othello,” Pierce says. “I always think of these … iconic roles and large roles like the beginning of a hike up Mount Everest.”
Interview highlights
On how many years ago, jazz helped him crack the code on Shakespeare
I went to the club to hear Arthur Blythe, a great alto saxophonist. And he’s pretty avant-garde, but he had this really hip, swinging tune. I was humming along with it. And then he went into his solo, which was free and wild and all over the place. And I was just looking around the club, still humming the song in my head. And when he finished his solo, we were right exactly on the same note in the melody of the song.
And that’s when I had this epiphany that while he was free and wild and doing his solo, he was aware of the structure of the song, and knew exactly where he was at all times, and came back to it. So he was free within the form, and then I understood that’s what Shakespeare is like: To have freedom within the form, don’t allow the verse to constrict you, but let it be the guard rails of where you’re supposed to be. But you have the opportunity to take it wherever you would like to take it. That’s really what all great art is about, a merger of technical proficiency and expression, and unlimited expression, but being able to be technically proficient and exact. And that opened up Shakespeare to me, that night, in September, 1981, in New York, listening to jazz at the Village Vanguard.
On why he almost quit The Wire
During the course of The Wire, people would challenge us all the time — “You are only demonstrating the thuggery and the crime and you’re perpetuating this idea that, the stereotype that Black folks are criminally inclined and violent and all.”
I remember a woman on the train challenging me, African American woman who worked on Wall Street. And I said, “I accept your criticism. … I welcome the challenge and the criticism so I can make sure that we don’t fall victim to that criticism. … But we have judges, the mayor, the president of the city council, the city council members, police officers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, who are all African American. But you’re only seeing the criminals. Imagine how tough it is for a little kid in those neighborhoods. They don’t see the lawyers or the doctors. If you don’t see them as an educated woman, a professional, and you can only see the thuggery, imagine how susceptible those young kids are to it. And that’s what we’re trying to tell and the story we’re trying to tell.”
Now, in the fourth season, I almost quit because at our wrap party a young lady comes up to me. She says, “Mr. Pierce, I was on the show this year. I really wanted to work with you. We didn’t have anything together. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your work and all.” And I said, “Who did you play?” And she says, “I look younger than I am, so I was one of the kids in the middle school.” … She played this out of control young woman who slashes another girl’s face. … She was like, “I’m going to Brown University on full scholarship.”
And I thought to myself, why are we not telling your story? … And I thought about the criticism and I said, that woman was right. And I said, I should leave the show because we’re perpetuating a stereotype. And then the episode came on for the fourth season and it was so impactful. And we see exactly where we lose our kids. And we see that inflection point where we can save them and put them on the right track. And where we make them the young woman who goes to Brown on a full scholarship, and where we lose them and send them into that pipeline, into the penal system, and calling our dysfunction out in our society that creates the criminality, that doesn’t celebrate the education of this young woman going to school and all. So it wasn’t arbitrary, and then that’s the only thing that made me come back.
On taking care of his late father in his last 10 years
He was two months away from his 99th birthday. He passed in my hands, we were holding hands. I was there with him. I had my father for a long time. I got closer to my father in the last 10 years of his life than I ever had before. My mother passed, and one of her dying wishes was, “Wendell, take care of your father.” She knew. While I was working in Budapest, if I got four days off, I would go home to New Orleans, and spend time with him. It was a blessing. I was traveling the world and being an actor and at the same time my home base is New Orleans, and here I would have my father with me for all those years and he was fuel to my fire. He was reminding me of everything that he taught me and as I attack these challenges of these great roles and the different roles that I play, he is very much in my process.
This is a man who fought in [the Battle of] Saipan in World War II, fought for the country that he loved when this country wasn’t loving him back and came back and his voting rights weren’t even protected and here he was risking his life in The Double V campaign in the Black community — victory abroad and victory at home. So he very much believed in that.
On the erasure of Black history
The idea of trying to eliminate any sort of contributions that the African-American community has made to this country in the year that we try to celebrate 250 — it is so insulting. … It feels like a visceral attack.
My brother was purged out of his job here in Washington, D.C. I know so many people and so many Black women in particular, this attack on minorities and women in a world where people are trying to erase them, we realize that that is our call to duty of our generation. We know now that we have to mark our passing on the tree and declare who we are, who we were, what our accomplishments are and have been and what we have created. And exercise our right of self-determination and declaration of accomplishment. We owe that to our ancestors, we owe that to the generations yet to come because there are those who do not have our best interest at heart.
Ann Marie Baldonado and Nico Gonzalez Wisler produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.
Transcript:
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I’m Tonya Mosley. My guest today, actor Wendell Pierce, is taking on a part he’s wanted to play for years – Shakespeare’s “Othello,” one of the most demanding roles ever written for the stage. The classic is a story of a celebrated military leader who is slowly manipulated into doubting his own wife until jealousy and deception consume him. Pierce is known to many as Detective Bunk Moreland on “The Wire” and Antoine Batiste on HBO’s “Treme.” On Broadway, he became the first Black actor to play Willy Loman in “Death Of A Salesman,” earning a 2023 Tony nomination for the role. His range these days runs just as wide – a police captain on CBS’ “Elsbeth,” a CIA officer in “Jack Ryan: Ghost War” and a villain in “Raising Kanan” on Starz. He plays Othello at the Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C., until June 28.
Wendell Pierce, welcome to FRESH AIR.
WENDELL PIERCE: Thank you for having me, Tonya.
MOSLEY: OK. So we are talking just a few hours before you go on stage there in D.C. as Othello. And what is your head like a few hours before you take on this role?
PIERCE: Oh, it’s really rest and relaxation because I have a couple of hours that I have to prepare for. But I try to relax and warm up and – mind, body and spirit – prepare for the journey. You know, I always think of these roles – you know, these iconic roles and large roles – like the beginning of a hike up Mount Everest. So I’m at Base Camp at this time of the day.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: That’s a good analogy or metaphor – whatever you want to call it – because, I mean, this role, you’ve said, has challenged you like few ever have. What is it about Othello?
PIERCE: Well, first of all, just the playwright himself, Mr. William Shakespeare, is a great challenge. You know, I try to do the trifecta, as I call it. I do television and film and theater every year – you know, the great trifecta and all of the different mediums. But I think I’m going to expand that to quartet because I would like to do a Shakespeare every year if I can because of, first of all, the detective work, I call it, of mining the text for all of its understanding and everything that Shakespeare was – is telling you not only about the characters, but how to portray them and what’s happening.
And that’s with – in the verse in the iambic pentameter, but it’s also in the onomatopoeia of the words sounding like what they are, the monosyllabic words denoting a slower pace and the opposite being true – multisyllabic words, a faster pace. That’s just the technical aspect of doing a – the – a classical text like that.
And then you have the emotional work that you have to do and the connection with the other actors and characters and the love that I have for Desdemona. And actually, the discovery in this role is the love that I have for Iago, which has been key for opening up Othello for me. Normally, he is just seen as the villain and manipulated by Iago. But actually, he is – that is a part of the love story, too. He is – in my interpretation, he is the person that I’ve known and loved and trusted all of my life because I’m orphaned. I am an outsider, and I’m orphaned since a small child. And so you build that up, and then you have to have the physical and then the vocal strength for a three-hour production. So the challenge is physical. It’s intellectual. And it’s emotional.
MOSLEY: You mentioned a little bit ago that you do a trifecta every year. But is that an intentional thing that you’re making for yourself? This year, I’m going to make sure I’m doing one of these three things. Now the fourth one – making sure that you do a Shakespeare play.
PIERCE: Yeah. I mean, you know, I’m in the third act of my career, I think, you know, and I’m challenging myself. It’s not just to go from job to job but to be intentional about the jobs I take. And I try to plan out the year that way. I still have to hope that someone hires me to do it, and I have to be good enough to get the auditions and get the offers and all.
And then also, just as an actor, you want to be as diverse as possible, and I want it. And that’s been the reason I’ve been able to have a 40-year career as a – working in New York and Los Angeles and doing television, doing film, doing theater – as many different places. I’ve produced a play in Uganda. I’ve – in Kampala, Uganda, at the National Theatre there. I try to make it as diverse as possible, and it’s a great challenge. And that’s what the journey is all about.
MOSLEY: I’m hearing the words you’re saying, Wendell. But I saw all the things that you’re doing right now, and I thought, whoa. I mean, this is, like – these – I – you are – you’re doing more in a year than many people do in five years. It seems like as you get older, you’re almost riding yourself even harder.
PIERCE: Well, you know, that ticking clock of mortality kind of helps.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
PIERCE: You want to build a body of work. You want to (laughter) – you know, subconsciously, that probably is a part of it. But also, it’s not all at the same time, you know? Right now “Jack Ryan: Ghost War” is out, but that was last summer and spring when we shot that in Dubai and London. And then “Elsbeth” just ended the season. We do that during the course of a regular television season from September to March. And now – while I’m doing that, I was planning out “Othello” for as soon as we got finished to do the – to come to Washington, D.C., and do “Othello” here. I’m – and then “Raising Kanan” – we had already shot that prior to last year. It’s been in the can for, like, a year.
So it’s all fortunate that they’re all coming out at the same time. So it seems like I’m doing them at the same time. But I break – but, you know, all these jobs – an actor’s life is in – well, I’ve discovered they’re kind of in quarters of the year, you know? First, second, third, fourth quarter. And that’s how I think of my planning because we work in three-month periods, you know? A play in three months. You know, a full season of television is maybe six months, so – and a film is three months. So you’re constantly planning, and it’s constantly changing. But I’m a journeyman actor. And some people say I shouldn’t say that, but I actually embrace that. That’s something that is a – I wear with pride. I love to call myself a journeyman.
MOSLEY: Is there a stigma to being a journeyman actor?
PIERCE: Some people think so. They say, oh, Wendell. You shouldn’t say that, man. You know, you’ve established yourself in the industry as someone significant. You know, I guess people are thinking of some star system or whatever. And I said, you know, I – there’s the joke that we have as actors as – of the five stages of your career. There’s, who is Wendell Pierce? Get me Wendell Pierce. Get me someone like Wendell Pierce.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
PIERCE: Get me a younger Wendell Pierce. And then the last and final and fifth stage is, who is Wendell Pierce? (Laughter) So…
MOSLEY: (Laughter) So you’re racing against not being, who is Wendell Pierce?
PIERCE: Is Wendell Pierce, yes.
MOSLEY: At that stage. Right.
PIERCE: Yeah. Yes.
MOSLEY: Do you have a favorite scene from “Othello”?
PIERCE: Oh, no. I have favorite – oh, there’s too many. It’s so rich. You know, what’s interesting is Desdemona and Othello don’t have any love scenes.
MOSLEY: They don’t.
PIERCE: They literally do not have any love scenes. And it’s one of the things that I really love about our production, that in the midst of scenes of strife, of conflict, of war, we find the moments to show our love for each other. But, you know, the first time is, like, they’re going to war. And I have to say, this is why I married her – this is what the intention is. I talk about my love for her. And then I get to war. I say – get to Cyprus. And I realize that she’s there, and I go, oh, thank God. You know, I’ve made it through it.
But what is normally a rousing speech on the battlefront, I make it into a declaration of love to Desdemona because she’s there and present. And I don’t care what others around me at this time and moment are saying. And, you know, I say, if it were now to die, it were now to be most happy, you know? I cannot speak enough of this content. It stops me here. It is too much of joy. And I’m only talking about her, right? And it’s normally played as, you know, I made it through the battle, and I made it here. And all you guys are here, and I happen to have my wife, too, and it’s a really wonderful thing. We’ve done it. The war is done, you know? And I’m like, no, it’s a love scene.
MOSLEY: If you’re just joining us, my guest is actor Wendell Pierce. He’s starring as the title character in Shakespeare’s “Othello” at the Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C. We’ll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALLEN TOUSSAINT’S “EGYPTIAN FANTASY”)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I am talking with actor Wendell Pierce. You know him from HBO’s “The Wire” and “Treme,” his Tony-nominated turn as Willy Loman in “Death Of A Salesman” on Broadway, and currently as Captain Wagner on the CBS series “Elsbeth.” Right now, he is also onstage in Washington, D.C., playing the title role in Shakespeare’s “Othello.”
Wendell, I’m noticing a theme in your work. You’re drawn to roles that take you somewhere dark and deep. And, of course, Othello does that. And so did Willy Loman, which you played back in 2022 when you became the first Black actor to play him in “Death Of A Salesman” on Broadway. He is an aging, traveling salesman chasing success. He really wants to be well-liked. How did you find your way into Willy Loman?
PIERCE: The first man I thought of was my father. My father was – had a great work ethic. He was a man, very simple laborer who had wanderlust, loved to travel. He kind of instilled that in us. He said, you can be whatever you want to be. And he also warned us that there are going to be people who will do everything possible that you won’t succeed. And so it was always there that I started to think of Willy Loman.
And what is so tragic about Willy Loman is, for men like that, the American dream was still something that was denied them at every step of the way. We achieved part of the American dream, but it was through an extreme difficulty. And that’s what – and that can break people. That can destroy people’s psyche and destroy their heart, destroy their mental facility.
And I think that’s what happened with Willy Loman, right? Because he was a Black man in America that loved the country, that loved the economic ethos and idea of the American dream. But then that dream was a nightmare for him. He was placed in – his expectations far outlasted and grew far past what was available to him. And out of that desperation, he destroyed himself and he destroyed his family.
MOSLEY: You know, that’s what’s so powerful about you playing this character. Because I think that the whole premise, the idea of “Death Of A Salesman,” it is something that everyone can sort of connect to, especially as an American here in America.
PIERCE: Absolutely.
MOSLEY: But there’s another layer there when you add on you and your identity as a Black man. It’s like another…
PIERCE: Yeah, as a Black man in America. I mean, because what happens is, there are people that came to the play that thought we rewrote the play. They said, you can’t change that. A producer actually came to me with great concern, like, wait, you changed – you can’t say. There’s the scene where Willy Loman is caught in an infidelity with a woman in a hotel by his son. It is the moment that broke all of their lives. And I tell her, listen, go into the bathroom, you know, and be quiet. There may be a law against this, right?
And in our production, I’m having an affair with a white woman. And it’s 1937, I think it was. And we’re in this hotel. And she is, you know, scantily clothed. And there’s a knocking on the door, and I’m thinking it’s someone that can expose our infidelity. And I say, you know, there may be a law against this. And I’m thinking of the laws that were of the time, that if – the literal laws of, you know, you could not marry, you could not be together in an interracial relationship. And then there was the time that so many Black men were lynched because they were caught with a white woman. It’s one of the most dangerous things that can ever happen. It was the time of the Scottsboro Boys. It was the time of – you know, of danger.
And actually, the producer thought we put it in there, right? And I said, no, that’s in the play because actually, the law at the time was no unmarried couple could be in a hotel together. And that’s the law that they were thinking of, that – in Boston, at this time, you know, it was, you’re not supposed to be in a hotel together unless you’re married. You know, there may be a law against this. And that simple line rang out like something you had never heard before in other productions.
MOSLEY: It felt different. Right.
PIERCE: It felt different.
MOSLEY: Yep. The last time that I spoke with you, we were in the pandemic, and you were spending a lot of time with your dad during that time. It was, like, 2021. And since then, he has passed away. And I just want to offer my condolences, first off.
PIERCE: Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you. I had my dad for – he was two months away from his 99th birthday. I literally – he passed in my hands, you know? We were holding hands. I was there with him. And so I had my father for a long time, and those last years, I spent – I got closer to my father in the last 10 years of his life than I ever had before. My mother passed, and one of her dying wishes was, Wendell, take care of your father, right? She knew. And, you know, while I was working in Budapest, if I got four days off, I would go home to New Orleans – right? – and spend time with him.
It was – but it was a blessing. I was traveling the world and being an actor, and at the same time, my home base is New Orleans, and here I would have my father with me for all those years. And he was fuel to my fire, you know? He was reminding me of everything that he taught me. And as I attacked these challenges of these great roles and the different roles that I play, you know, he is very much in my process.
This is a man who fought in Saipan in World War II, you know, and came back and was not – his voting rights weren’t even protected, and here he was risking his life in the Double V campaign in the Black community – victory abroad and victory at home. So he very much believed in that.
MOSLEY: There’s a – there’s actually a moving speech that you gave the opening night of “Death Of A Salesman,” where you’re paying tribute to your father, and he was actually in the audience at the time. And I want to play some of it. Let’s listen to a little bit.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PIERCE: When this play was written, a young man came from New Orleans to be a photographer. He decided to go home and raise his three boys in New Orleans, one of which is me.
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: (Murmuring).
PIERCE: He fought for this country and loved it when it didn’t love him back.
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: (Murmuring).
PIERCE: But he gave me the most precious thing ever – love and time.
(APPLAUSE)
MOSLEY: That was my guest, Wendell Pierce, on opening night of “Death Of A Salesman.” And at that moment, when you say he gave me time, you hold up a timepiece, and you walk off the stage, and you present it to your dad.
PIERCE: And that was the timepiece pocket watch from the play that you see Willie Loman receive from his brother. It is – and I presented it to him. And I knew in that moment, it was probably the last time he would ever see me on stage. And I just wanted to honor him.
MOSLEY: Our guest today is actor Wendell Pierce. We’ll be right back after a short break. I’m Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALLEN TOUSSAINT’S “JUST A CLOSER WALK WITH THEE”)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Tonya Mosley. And my guest today is actor Wendell Pierce. Over a career spanning four decades, he’s played some of the most memorable characters on television – Detective Bunk Moreland on HBO’s “The Wire,” the trombone player Antoine Batiste in “Treme.” And in 2022, he became the first Black actor to play Willy Loman in “Death Of A Salesman” on Broadway. He’s currently starring as Captain Wagner on the CBS series “Elsbeth,” is back as a CIA officer, James Greer, in “Jack Ryan: Ghost War” and in the final season of “Raising Kanan” on Starz. He’s currently on stage in Washington, D.C., playing the title role in Shakespeare’s “Othello.” It runs through June 28 at the Shakespeare Theatre.
You know, I’m thinking about how you say that you got into the character Willy Loman by really thinking about the journey of your father. And that story you told in your speech just then for opening night – that was a revelation to you that your father was a young photographer right around the time “Death Of A Salesman” was going out into the world because your dad – for the longest time, you thought he didn’t want this life of a creator for you. He – you thought…
PIERCE: Oh, yes.
MOSLEY: …He wanted you to be kind of traditional man – a lawyer or a doctor.
PIERCE: Absolutely.
MOSLEY: Something safe.
PIERCE: He was a – oh, man. I went to a very good school, very great college preparatory school – Ben Franklin. It’s the No. 1 high school in Louisiana. And it – it’s – you know, it’s all these great National Merit scholars and people with scholarships and going to the Ivy Leagues and great careers. And he just – and when I decided early on in the middle of that I wanted to be an actor at 14, going to this other great school, the New Orleans Center for Creative Arts – I had the best of both worlds – oh, he was so adamantly against it. He was like, let your mama take you to all that stuff. I’m not going to do it. But he stuck to his guns. His principle was, you do what you want to do but give 100%.
And so he was adamantly against it. And – but then my brother made me remember that my father was a photographer. And he said, I want Daddy’s pictures. You know, if anything ever happens, I want Daddy’s pictures. I said, what pictures? And he showed me these pictures from an art exhibit my father had done when he had studied as a photographer.
And he went to New York. I knew he had gone to New York to study photography because that was a trade back in the day. We didn’t have our phones and Instamatic cameras. You went to a photography studio and got your pictures taken. So the – but – so when the Instamatic camera came out, actually, an entire industry went away because a photographer was like your – like a grocer or a dry cleaner, you know? The family got together. They went to the photography studio, and they took pictures. And that’s what he was expecting to do.
And that’s what I thought he was training to do when I realized he had an artistic vocation of being a photographer like Roy DeCarava or James Van Der Zee and all of these wonderful photographers when I saw these from his exhibit. So it was a dream deferred for him. So a part of his pushback on my wanting to be an actor was his desire as a father not to see his son go through the hurt and the disappointment that he had gone through. And so that’s why he tried to steer me away from being an actor early on when I was in high school.
MOSLEY: You went on to study at Juilliard, which you have said is kind of the most terrifying experience of your life. You made it through there – you could make it through anywhere. But you – there’s this other story you tell that you’ve told many times, but what we got to hear it here – your most memorable audition. You had just graduated from Juilliard, and you’re in front of Bob Fosse.
PIERCE: Oh, wow. Yeah. That audition I consider one of the highlights of my career. And it was for “The Big Deal” on Broadway. And I went in, and I had come up with – they had already started. It was a play about a boxer who is being manipulated by the Mob, and he’s throwing fights. And he takes his life back. He goes, listen. All right. This is it. I’m not going to do this anymore. I’m taking my life back.
And so he explodes in the middle of – in this one scene. And so I was going in to audition. They had already started rehearsal, and on the break, I was going to go in and do my audition. So as the doors open and they’re coming out for a break, I run into the room, and I said, all right. Listen up, everybody. This is what’s going to happen. I’m taking my life back. And I go into the scene, right? Everybody stops, like, who is this crazy guy? They say, OK. OK. All right. Everybody, go on break.
Bob Fosse clears the room. He says, OK. Now, do it. The stage manager is fumbling, trying to find the scene. I say, all right, everybody. This is it. I’m taking my life back. He goes, stop, stop, stop. The stage manager was lost. He says – he turns to the pianist, and he goes, Give me an F vamp. Bump, bump. Bump, bump. Bump, bump. Then he says, give me the script. And he says, OK. Start. And I said, all right, everybody. This is how it’s going to go. I’m taking my life back. And he reads the scene with me. No, you aren’t. I’m going to – you’re still going to do what we say. I said, no. It’s going to go this way. Bump, bump.
And he circles me, and we read the scene together. And at the end, he goes, oh, you’re good. But you’re too young. You’re too young. Oh, man. But I want to work with you. He calls my agent. My agent calls me and says, What did you do today? Bob Fosse called and said he’s going to work with you this year. I said, oh, my God. That’s great. But – you’re too young for this, but he’s going to find something. He’s going to work with you this year. Later that year, I’m in a hotel room, and I see – Bob Fosse’s picture comes up. And they say, ladies and gentlemen, Bob Fosse died today.
MOSLEY: Ah.
PIERCE: And I was like, oh, man. I was going to work with him. I was going to work with him. And then I had the epiphany. I did work with him. I did. We did a scene together. It had the music behind it. We read it. It was great. We had an audience of one, but I did work with Bob Fosse. And that’s when I realized an audition is an opportunity to share your work. You’re not asking for a job. You’re saying this is what I would do with this role, this is what this play is about, this is what this film is about. And just go and do the work. It’s opening and closing night, and that’s it. And if something comes out of it, the job itself or whatever, then that’s – then you get to continue to do the work. But that’s my Bob Fosse story.
MOSLEY: What a confident young man you were.
PIERCE: Yeah, because…
MOSLEY: I’m taking my life back.
PIERCE: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: If you’re just joining us, my guest is actor Wendell Pierce. He’s starring as the title character in Shakespeare’s “Othello.” We’ll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JON CLEARY SONG, “DYNA-MITE”)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I am talking with actor Wendell Pierce. You know him from HBOs “The Wire” and “Treme,” his Tony-nominated turn as Willy Loman in “Death Of A Salesman” on Broadway and currently as Captain Wagner on the CBS series “Elsbeth.” Right now, he is also onstage in Washington, D.C., playing the title role in Shakespeare’s “Othello.”
You know, Wendell, so many of the men you play are holding onto dignity within systems who don’t fully see them. And it seems to be kind of like the through line that I see with so many of the characters you play. And I want to talk for just a moment about Bunk Moreland from “The Wire.” In a lot of ways, anyone who’s seen the show knows it, but I mean, he was the conscience of the show. He took so much pride in his job, even inside of this department that made it kind of hard.
And I want to play a scene that comes after a shootout. It’s where one of the women in Omar’s crew has been shot dead in the street. And now Omar, who is played by the late Michael K. Williams, is this fierce kind of stickup man who robs high-end drug dealers. And Bunk is investigating that killing. And he pulls Omar aside to this quiet, deserted spot. And they have this moment that we’re about to play. Let’s listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “THE WIRE”)
PIERCE: (As Detective Bunk Moreland) I was a few years ahead of you at Edmonson, but I know you remember the neighborhood, how it was. We had some bad boys for real. It wasn’t about guns so much as knowing what to do with your hands. Those boys could really rack. My father had me on the straight. But like any young man, I wanted to be hard, too. So I would turn up at all the house parties where the tough boys hung. Yeah, they knew I wasn’t one of them.
Them hard cases would come up to me and say go home, schoolboy, you don’t belong here. Didn’t realize at the time what they were doing for me. As rough as that neighborhood could be, we had us a community. No body, no victim that didn’t matter. And now all we got is bodies and predatory [expletive] like you. And out where that girl fell, I saw kids acting like Omar, calling you by name, glorifying your [expletive]. It makes me sick how far we done fell.
MOSLEY: I just want to listen to the rest of the show right now.
PIERCE: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: That was my guest, Wendell Pierce, in “The Wire.” Wendell, is it true that there was actually a turning point during the height of the success of this show when you thought about leaving it?
PIERCE: Yes, yes. There came a point. Someone – during the course of “The Wire,” people would challenge us all the time. You know, you are only demonstrating the thuggery and the crime. And you’re perpetuating this idea that – the stereotype that Black folks are criminally inclined and violent and all. I remember a woman on the train challenging me, an African American woman who worked on Wall Street.
And I said, I accept your criticism. We should never lose the ability to be offended, never lose that ability. So I welcome the challenge, and that’s – and the criticism, so I can make sure that we don’t fall victim to that criticism. I said, but we have judges, the mayor, the president of the city council, the city council members, police officers, lawyers, doctors, teachers who are all African American. But you’re only seeing the criminals.
Imagine how tough it is for a little kid in those neighborhoods. They don’t see the lawyers or the doctors. And if you don’t see them, as an educated woman, a professional, and you can only see the thuggery, imagine how susceptible those young kids are to it. And that’s what we’re trying to tell and the story we’re trying to tell. Now, in the fourth season, I almost quit because…
MOSLEY: Yeah.
PIERCE: …At our wrap party, a young lady comes up to me. She says, oh, Mr. Pierce, I was on the show this year. I really wanted to work with you. I didn’t get – we didn’t have anything together. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your work and all. And, you know, this is my only time being on “The Wire.” And I’m going to Brown, I think she was going to, on a full scholarship. And I said, who did you play? And she says, I look younger than I am. So I was one of the kids in the middle school.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
PIERCE: And I said, oh. And then she described the character that she played was this out-of-control young woman who slashes another girl’s face…
MOSLEY: Oh, I know that episode. Yeah.
PIERCE: …Over something trivial. And I said, wait a minute, you played that? And she said yes. And I said, and what do you do in life? Wait, where are you going? She was like, I’m going to Brown University on full scholarship. And I thought to myself, why are we not telling your story? Why are we not telling your story? And I thought about the criticism, and I said, that woman was right. And I said, I should leave the show ’cause we’re perpetuating a stereotype. And then the episode came on for the fourth season. And it was so impactful. And we see exactly where we lose our kids. And we see that inflection point, where we can save them and put them on the right track, and where we can make them the young woman who goes to Brown on a full scholarship, and where we lose them and send them into that pipeline into the penal system.
And then I said, OK, it’s not arbitrary. That’s the role we’re playing on “The Wire.” We are the cautionary tale. We are, as Shakespeare said, holding a mirror up to nature and calling our dysfunction out in our society that creates the criminality, that doesn’t celebrate the education of this young woman going to school and all. So it wasn’t arbitrary, and then that’s the only thing that made me come back.
MOSLEY: Let’s take a short break. If you’re just joining us, my guest is actor Wendell Pierce. He’s starring in the title role of Shakespeare’s “Othello” at the Shakespeare Theater Company in Washington, D.C. We’ll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL FRISELL’S “MESSIN’ WITH THE KID”)
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today, I’m talking with actor Wendell Pierce. He’s currently on stage in Washington, D.C, playing the title role in Shakespeare’s “Othello.” He’s also known for his roles in HBO’s “The Wire” and “Treme,” his Tony-nominated portrayal as Willie Loman in “Death Of A Salesman” on Broadway and the CBS series “Elsbeth.”
You know, I think anybody who knows you or even knows just a little bit about you knows that you are from New Orleans. You rep it very hard.
PIERCE: (Laughter) Yes.
MOSLEY: And you grew up in Pontchartrain Park…
PIERCE: Yes.
MOSLEY: …In New Orleans. It sounds so idyllic. You had a pretty idyllic childhood, it sounds like.
PIERCE: It was. I called I call Pontchartrain Park the Black Mayberry, you know?
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
PIERCE: It grew out of the Civil Rights Movement, when there was so many prohibitions and where Blacks could not participate in the expansion of post-World War II, you know, suburbia. And there was a movement to make sure that Black folks had access to homes and all. And Pontchartrain Park came out of sort of an appeasement. It was separate but equal, adjacent to Gentilly Woods, which was a white neighborhood, where the covenant of Blacks couldn’t move in.
And they set aside another 200 acres and replicated that neighborhood in Pontchartrain Park. But right in the middle of it, Joseph Bartholomew designed a golf course, a little municipal golf course. And Joseph Bartholomew was an African American landscape architect who designed most of the courses in New Orleans at the time and – but couldn’t play on them. So it was the ying and yang of fighting the ignorance of Jim Crow segregated New Orleans, but at the same time, creating pockets of idyllic communities. And Pontchartrain Park was one of them.
And lawyers and doctors and teachers and janitors and the glass man – Mr. Wagner (ph) was a glass man. And Mr. Greenwood (ph) was the dry cleaner. So it was economic development, and everybody’s – your mother and father and playground there at Southern University at New Orleans, at a Black historic Black college, right in the neighborhood. So it was really, really idyllic.
MOSLEY: Yeah. So many memories with you and your mom and your dad. Your mom, who was a school teacher, your siblings. And it was destroyed.
PIERCE: And she taught two blocks from our home at Coghill Elementary School, where I went to elementary school. And for years, I was just known as Mrs. Pierce’s son because she was so beloved in the neighborhood, and she was a part of a community.
MOSLEY: What was that like for you? What was that like for you, though, to be a child of a schoolteacher (laughter)?
PIERCE: Well, it was – all of our teachers lived in the neighborhood, too, so the worst part about it is, you know, I would come home from school or come home from the playground, and my mother’s sitting there with my second grade teacher and my third grade teacher and my fourth grade teacher.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
PIERCE: And – you know, and they’re having their cocktails after work, you know? So every – I – all of my teachers, I would see on a regular basis…
MOSLEY: You couldn’t get away with anything.
PIERCE: …Socially with my ma. I couldn’t get away with anything. But it was great, you know? It was great, the community. And it was totally destroyed by Katrina, one of the deepest parts of the flooding. And I knew how it was first built, the civic advocacy that constructed Pontchartrain Park in the Civil Rights Movement, led by A P Tureaud, one of the great civil rights lawyers of New Orleans in my parents’ generation.
So I put out a clarion call to our generation after Katrina, saying we owe it to them. You know, we owe it to them to rebuild it. And so we have rebuilt it, our neighborhood, brick by brick, block by block, house by house, and Pontchartrain Park is back. I led an effort, and we rebuilt 40 homes. And that’s where I live to this day. I’m still there in Pontchartrain Park.
MOSLEY: You wrote this book out of that devastation, “The Wind In The Reeds,” in 2015. I mean, it’s a memoir, but it also is this love letter to New Orleans that’s so descriptive about your childhood but then just about the city and the history. And there’s a particular moment. You say, decades from now, little kids will ask, Mr. Pierce, what did you…
PIERCE: What did you do?
MOSLEY: …Know about New Orleans’ darkest hour? And you will tell them – and that got me thinking about this quote that I’m kind of obsessed with right now from Bryan Stevenson, where he said that, basically, our ancestors fought for freedom, our parents fought for civil rights and our generation’s struggle is a narrative one, the honest accounting of what actually happened. And reading your book, I just felt echoes of that. I wonder what you – how you feel about that idea because you’re just so intentional in making sure that this story, particularly about New Orleans and Katrina, stays alive.
PIERCE: It is the most important thing we have right now in our time and our generation. People are actively trying to erase who we are as a people. I am only minutes away from the Pentagon as I speak right now. And I remember my father admiring General Chappie James, Benjamin Chappie James (ph). And to know that they just removed his painting from the Pentagon – and whatever reason they come up with, we all know the reason. It’s just racist, and the idea of trying to eliminate any sort of contributions that the African American community has made to this country in the year that we try to celebrate 250, it is so insulting. It is so aggressively – it feels like a visceral attack.
My brother was purged out of his job here in Washington, D.C. I know so many people and it’s so many Black women in particular, this attack on minorities and women in a world where we are trying to – where people are trying to erase them. We realize that that is our call to duty of our generation, which is, we know now that we have to mark our passing on the tree and declare who we are, who we were, what our accomplishments are and have been and what we have created and exercise our right of self determination and declaration of accomplishment. We owe that to our ancestors. We owe that to the generations yet to come because there are those who do not have our best interests at heart.
MOSLEY: Wendell Pierce, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.
PIERCE: Thank you. I really appreciate it.
MOSLEY: Wendell Pierce stars in “Othello” at the Shakespeare Theatre Company in Washington, D.C.
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, the rise of masculinism. How the movement, which is now mainstream, aims to fight feminism and restore the primacy of men. We speak with Helen Lewis, who writes about the movement in The Atlantic. I hope you can join us.
To keep up with what’s on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram – @nprfreshair.
(SOUNDBITE OF KENNY BURRELL’S “CHITLINS CON CARNE”)
MOSLEY: FRESH AIR’s executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I’m Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF KENNY BURRELL’S “CHITLINS CON CARNE”)
