Oliver Tree died earlier this month. The singer was known for viral stunts and creating characters like Turbo, Shawney Bravo and Cornelius Cummings, along with his garish clothing and outlandish hairstyles. He wore bowl cuts, bobs, mullets, sometimes all three. One of his biggest, most energetic hits was “Miss You.”
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “MISS YOU”)
OLIVER TREE: (Singing) It could be anyone else out there. Don’t fret. I don’t ever wanna see you, and I never wanna miss you again. One thing – when you’re angry, you’re a jerk and then you treat me like I’m worth nothing. Don’t fret.
SIMON: Oliver Tree was on what he called the world’s first world tour with dates set for all seven continents when he died in a helicopter crash in Brazil. He was just 32 years old. We spoke with Oliver Tree in 2023 for his record “Alone In A Crowd” and asked about his music video for his song “Bounce.” It featured sober, gray Soviet-style buildings with sharp edges and wild gangs of paparazzi.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “BOUNCE”)
OLIVER TREE: (Singing) I’ma bounce you up and down. You’ll be…
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
OLIVER TREE: For me, this album was made at a time where I experienced a pretty unique thing which was having viral success and experiencing fame, which I went from having in two months, zero followers on TikTok to 10 million. And in that process, I became incredibly lonely. I felt isolated, Rapunzelled. It wasn’t actually a really healthy experience. Whether it’s tons of praise or tons of negativity, there’s nothing healthy about that for the psyche. But in the visual context, basically, that video expresses that people are – all want a piece of you. They’re grabbing at you. They all just want something from you. And recognizing, you know, maybe it wasn’t really what you thought it was going to be.
(SOUNDBITE OF OLIVER TREE SONG, “BOUNCE”)
OLIVER TREE: Everything has a price, and for me, my dream is to inspire people. And everything has a cost, so you can’t really expect anything different.
SIMON: And that’s where the song “Strangers” comes in?
OLIVER TREE: Yeah. That song specifically explores that.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “STRANGERS”)
OLIVER TREE: (Singing) I turned into what I hated, but I can’t escape my own fate. In the mirror, I’m betrayed when I am staring at my own face. It’s hard to believe the more friends you have, the better. It’s never what it seems. I feel more alone than ever. Oh, strangers…
Especially as a guy who goes on stage and plays shows, for sometimes, you know, 30, 40,000 people at a time. Still walking off that stage, feeling lonelier than you can imagine. But on the other side of it, it’s such a beautiful thing when these people join together and maybe they’re filming on their phones, but a lot of times they’re removed out of that, and they get a second to really live and be present, to be able to have moments that everyone is unified and those moments in the show where I take out the music, and it’s just the crowd singing, and they’re the show. I’m no longer even doing anything, and that is such a beautiful moment.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “ESSENCE (FEAT. SUPER COMPUTER)”)
OLIVER TREE: (Singing) Baby, you are my essence. Let me make a confession. You’re all I talk about when you’re not around. I need you in my presence. You always know…
SIMON: Is there a message that you would like people to take from your work now, something we need to hear?
OLIVER TREE: My goal is to just show people how to be themselves, how to embrace their imperfections and lean into it and be the best version of ourselves and be able to – like, through the process of this album, I’ve become, you know, fully sober. It’s been three years of being sober and learning how to love yourself, you know? That’s the thing is, like, we have so much anger in this world, and a lot of times people are just very unhappy with themselves, and then they take that out on others. So much of my goal is to be able to learn how to love myself and try to show people how to love themselves.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “ELEVATOR TO THE SKY”)
OLIVER TREE: (Singing) Where do we go in the end? Gone with the wind and never seen again.
SIMON: Oliver Tree, from our interview in 2023. The musician died earlier this month. According to a post on his Instagram page, Oliver Tree’s legacy will live on through his foundation endowment, named Dr. Oliver Tree’s Extremely Epic Grant for Baby Geniuses. The post continues – this is something that Oliver had put together before his passing, written in his will. We will make sure his wish comes to fruition so that more joy, love and art can be spread into the world. That was his final wish.
The stage was set in Statuary Hall in the U.S. Capitol this week, American flags, a desk adorned with the presidential seal. But President Trump canceled his signing of a major bipartisan housing bill, saying he refuses to sign it until the Senate passes the SAVE Act, which would tighten voting ID requirements. NPR senior contributor Ron Elving joins us. Ron, thanks so much for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: How do you analyze the President’s move here? Refusing to sign legislation aimed at making housing more affordable, then trying to force the Senate to do what he wants on voter IDs.
ELVING: It’s hard to understand, Scott. Whether you’re talking policy or politics, the country is increasingly distressed about the ordinary cost of living. Housing is among the biggest worries. So here’s a bill supported by majorities in both parties – in both House and the Senate – signing it looks like a no-brainer. In baseball, it would be a hanging curveball begging for a trip to the bleachers. But instead, we get this dramatic last-minute cancellation.
And what did it accomplish? Does it get Trump’s bill on voting procedure the votes it needs in the Senate? Did it get him closer? Does it at least unite his party on the issue? No. It shows, again, that Trump is focused not on what the country needs and wants but on his own agenda, especially his goal of changing how Americans vote. So instead of a feel-good moment and something for Republicans to run on this fall, Trump had to change the subject, talk once more about voter fraud, once again, without offering any proof of actual voter fraud affecting actual election outcomes.
SIMON: Three Democratic socialist candidates won Democratic House primaries in New York this week, all supported by New York’s Mayor Mamdani. President Trump spoke at length about this yesterday at the Faith & Freedom Coalition conference.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This is the greatest threat to our country since its founding, in my opinion, 250 years ago – what’s happening right now. It’s the greatest threat. People don’t look at that. Oh, three people were elected. No, no. It’s many more than three people.
SIMON: Do you think this line of attack is going to appeal to voters across the country?
ELVING: It will appeal to those who in 2026 continue to think communist encroachment is the biggest problem Americans face in their daily lives. And while that view is far less prevalent than it was when Trump was young in the 1950s and ’60s, there are people who still talk about the global communist conspiracy as though nothing had happened in the five decades since.
SIMON: John Bolton, of course – President Trump’s former national security adviser who became an ardent critic – pled guilty yesterday to mishandling classified information. He is one name on an extensive list of the president’s adversaries that have been targeted by the Justice Department. What’s your reaction?
ELVING: It seems clear Bolton broke the law with his notations from classified documents – just notations from documents. Although there is no evidence, he did this to serve the cause of some foreign power. It was wrong. It gave Trump a powerful weapon to use against a man who is a longtime hero to conservatives and defense hawks before he spent some time inside the first Trump White House and emerged as a whistleblowing critic.
SIMON: Finally, Ron, you know who’s back on the news? Richard Nixon, kind of. Vice President Vance, speaking at Nixon’s presidential library in California this week, said that Watergate would be, quote, “like a 12-hour news story if it happened now.” He said the deep state took down Richard Nixon. I wonder if that’s how you recall Watergate.
ELVING: JD Vance is 41, so he missed the reality of Watergate by a decade. But there are lots of us who remember the Nixon era from experience. Watergate was a case of bipartisan resistance to criminal acts committed by a president, elements of his staff and his reelection campaign. The acts were exposed by news reporting, first in a trickle and then in a torrent. And with the House poised to impeach Nixon in 1974, a contingent of Republican senators, led by the legendary conservative Barry Goldwater, told Nixon in the White House he would be removed from office, prompting Nixon to resign. If JD Vance thinks all of that – a matter of that magnitude wouldn’t matter in today’s Washington – we’d all better hope he is wrong.
World War II’s Battle of the Bulge began in December 1944 in the forests of Belgium, and it sent the German army into retreat, but at the cost of more than 80,000 U.S. casualties. The new film “Lucky Strike” tells the story of one soldier, John Castle, who must walk nearly 20 miles across German-occupied territory with just a backpack field radio as his only link to U.S. forces.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “LUCKY STRIKE”)
SCOTT EASTWOOD: (As John Castle) I’m walking. Confirm there’s no closer stragglers I can move to. Over.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: I don’t know who we have down there, but we can’t deal with this now. We’re under intense artillery fire.
SIMON: “Lucky Strike” stars Scott Eastwood as that soldier, John Castle, along with Colin Hanks and Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor. And Scott Eastwood, who’s also starred in “The Outpost,” “Wrath Of Man,” “Flags Of Our Fathers” and other films, joins us now. Thanks so much for being with us.
EASTWOOD: Thanks for having me.
SIMON: The film begins by saying it’s inspired by true events. What does that mean? How much really happened?
EASTWOOD: So our producer, Mark Frydman, was living in France at the time. He’s a French national, post World War II. And as a high school project, he was meant to write a report. So what he did was he interviewed a bunch of veterans who had survived, and this story really had stuck with him. He held on to this story for almost 50 years after writing a script and many iterations, trying to get it made. Now we’re releasing it.
SIMON: And radio plays an important role, doesn’t it? Tell us about the Motorola on his back.
EASTWOOD: Yeah. It’s an interesting piece of equipment that, you know, not many people talked about in World War II, but it was, you know, some of the earlier technology of the time. Obviously, Motorola became a massive telecom giant, but it was really sort of the early days.
SIMON: Yeah. I’d like to take a moment to listen with you to a short, tough speech that’s delivered towards the end of the film.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, “LUCKY STRIKE”)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As characters) Soldiers die in war. Your job is not to keep your men alive. Your job is to keep my mother alive. Your job is to keep your mother alive. Your job is to keep all our children alive.
SIMON: Boy, what kind of thoughts does that stir up for you?
EASTWOOD: It really asks the question, why do we survive? Why do we? We do it for those at home, you know? If – every time you send off young men or women off to war, you’re fighting for what we believe in – our way of life, democracy, the pursuit of the American dream, pursuit of people having a better way of life. And, you know, that’s an interesting thing to examine.
SIMON: Well, the implication, of course, is that soldiers, that’s part of the bargain you make when you become a soldier.
EASTWOOD: Yeah. There’s a price. You know, you pay that price, and America’s sort of built on the backs of soldiers who have paid that price.
SIMON: Yeah. May I ask – Colin Hanks is also in the film with you – do the two of you ever talk about – I don’t know – (laughter) the obvious (laughter)?
EASTWOOD: Yeah. I didn’t – you know, it’s kind of like – a sailor always sees another sailor from afar. We didn’t have to say much, but we both knew. You know, we both had a – probably a similar experience, and it made us who we are today, and it kind of gave us both the inspiration for wanting to continue on telling stories and be a part of a creative endeavor and creating a – you know, a body of work. You know, we both work in an industry where you – that’s kind of what you do. You sort of commit to creating, and it’s a tough thing, but it’s also a beautiful thing.
SIMON: Every time I see a new World War II film or read a new World War II book, it amazes me that all these decades later, we’re not through telling that story, are we?
EASTWOOD: You know, it’s the only war that, you know, everybody knew there was a common enemy to the world. There was, you know, evil being done, and it was a fight for justice. You know, other wars, I think there’s a lot of ambiguity. There’s a lot of, were we supposed to be there, why are we doing this? But that war, I think, resonates with most because it’s so clear, right and wrong.
SIMON: Scott Eastwood stars in the new film “Lucky Strike.” It’s in theaters now. Thank you so much for being with us.
CROW AGENCY, Mont. — Under the expansive Montana sky, hundreds of members and descendants of 19 tribal nations gather at one of America’s most famous battlefields. They’re here to watch as Native American riders on horseback charge onto the same land their ancestors did 150 years ago when they defeated the U.S. Army’s 7th Cavalry under the command of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer.
The riders race across the dry landscape — kicking up clouds of dust before circling at the top of a hill at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument. Some of them are wearing headdresses and regalia, others are wearing tank tops and T-shirts. Many of them are carrying their tribal flags in a show of unity — the same unity that made possible their swift victory on June 25, 1876.
“It was so important then, 150 years ago. … It’s important today still,” said Gaby Strong, who is Sisseton-Wahpeton and Mdewakanton. “Our victories are still possible.”
Custer’s goal was to force Native Americans onto reservations. After the 1874 discovery of gold in the Black Hills, Indigenous peoples living off reservations were directed to report to their U.S. field offices, called Indian Agencies, or be deemed hostile.
Native American leaders, including Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, organized villages and tribes together in a resistance effort.
Several battles broke out in what is now Montana and South Dakota as military forces attempted to push remaining groups onto reservations.
“Crazy Horse, he went from band to band, leader to leader, to tell them about this idea of our relatives coming together for a much greater cause than themselves,” said Christopher Eagle Bear. He is Sicunga Lakota from the Rosebud Sioux Tribe.
In 1876, Custer was tracking a nomadic village of various peoples, including the Oceti Sakowin (Sioux), Cheyenne and Arapaho. Custer was tracking that camp with the help of about three dozen Arikara and Crow scouts. Scouting for the U.S. government was a common practice among many tribes.
Custer divided his forces of around 700 men into three columns, hoping to surround the village.
By June 25, the village had swelled to an estimated 8,000 people. Custer decided to attack early out of fear the allied tribes would disband and escape — a decision which proved to be a fatal mistake.
“It was early morning, they were camped. Then all of a sudden they’d seen Custer’s platoon coming over the ridge,” Eagle Bear said, recounting the battle known to the Lakota as the Battle of Greasy Grass.
Christopher Eagle Bear, 27, is the youngest tribal council member for the Rosebud Sioux Tribe. He said the commemoration was about reclaiming and celebrating their identity. (Jessica Plance for NPR)
“They say the battle lasted as long as it took you to make a cup of coffee and drink it,” he said.
Custer was outnumbered. By the battle’s end, 268 of Custer’s forces were killed, mostly U.S. soldiers. Custer was among those killed. On the other side, fewer than 100 Native Americans were killed, including women and children.
Custer’s crushing defeat sparked fear and outrage nationwide. The U.S. government responded by changing its approach to Indian policy, shifting to forced assimilation. Just three years after the battle, the first off-reservation federal Indian Boarding School opened in Carlisle, Pa. Hundreds more followed, beginning a century of abuse that attempted to erase Native ways of life.
“They realized that they couldn’t destroy us head on. … So after that, they did the next best thing that you could do to tear apart a nation, and that was take away the children,” said Eagle Bear.
Youth leaders hope to inspire the next generation
People are taking down tipis at an encampment along the Little Bighorn River during the 150th anniversary commemoration of the Battle of the Little Bighorn near Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument. The encampment brought together tribal members from across the Plains for ceremonies, storytelling and remembrance. (Jessica Plance for NPR)
Eagle Bear is camping at the site of that historic village. To commemorate their victory, people from various tribal nations have set up their tipis here, and there is a council lodge in the middle of the camp.
Eagle Bear is here as one of the coordinators for the Rosebud Sioux Tribe’s camp, and he said he wants to set an example for the next generation.
“Someday from now, you know, the kids that are here today, they’re going to come together during the 200th anniversary and they’re going to talk about what they witnessed as kids,” he said. “My prayers are being answered every single day with the fact that these kids are here.”
Just feet away, a group of children are playing lacrosse with traditional sticks to the sound of drumming. And cooking for the camp are members of the Sicunga Youth Council.
“We’ve been planning this for roughly eight months now. So it’s very heartwarming to see everyone that actually showed up and that’s here,” said Ashlen Bonshirt, a member of the youth council.
“We did plan the lacrosse, and there’s yoga, and there are all these different amazing things for our youth,” she said. “But on the other side of it is the garbage, the showers — everything that is here, we had to plan for it.”
The camp is full of young people. School groups, youth councils and kids with their families are staying in tipis all around. Many of them are learning things about the battle that weren’t covered in school.
“I feel like a lot of it is whitewashed,” said 13-year-old Gianna Larocque-Mahto. She’s Dakota, of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate, and she’s here with her grandmother.
“We didn’t get to learn about the Native people’s side, like the Dakota people’s side. We only got to learn from one perspective,” she said. “And I feel like that’s not fair. … I think it’s important that we learn from all different people’s perspectives and not just one person.”
Champion Marquez and his friend Elijah Wallowing pose in front of a tipi in the encampment. (Jessica Plance for NPR)Gianna Larocque-Mahto rode her horse to the camp from nearby Busby, Mont., joining a group of other riders. They started their “Victory Ride” in Ashland, Mont., roughly 60 miles away. (Kadin Mills | NPR)
Eighteen-year-old Champion Marquez is Cheyenne. He’s also staying at the camp, and he’s been volunteering here this week — working security, helping elders and setting up tipis.
Marquez said the commemoration gives him hope for the future. “Hope that a bunch of new generations are going to learn about what happened at the Battle of Little Bighorn. Seeing all these kids having fun, playing with each other, all these events for them happening.”
“Seeing all this here just [reassures] that … we’re still here.”
A group of children from different tribal nations play lacrosse together using traditional equipment. (Kadin Mills | NPR)
Transcript:
SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
One hundred and fifty years ago this week, Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer launched an attack on an encampment of Native tribes in what is now Montana. Often called Custer’s Last Stand, the Battle of Little Bighorn was a decisive victory for Plains tribes. It was also a significant moment in the nation’s history as the U.S. government moved to force Indigenous peoples onto reservations. NPR’s Kadin Mills takes us to the site of that historic battle.
KADIN MILLS, BYLINE: Much like their ancestors did 150 years ago, members and descendants of over a dozen tribes charged on horseback onto the historic battlefield.
(SOUNDBITE OF HORSES WHINNYING)
MILLS: They race across the dry landscape, kicking up clouds of dust before circling at the top of a hill at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED RIDERS: (Ululating).
MILLS: It looks like a scene from 1876, except in addition to headdresses and war paint, many of the riders are also wearing tank tops and T-shirts. And they pose for pictures in front of the crowds that have gathered here.
UNIDENTIFIED RIDER: (Whooping).
MILLS: The riders are also carrying the flags of their numerous tribal nations in a show of unity – the same unity that led to Custer’s demise in what many Native people call the Battle of Greasy Grass.
CHAMPION MARQUEZ: And we were ready to charge until Custer then came and tried to sneak attack us.
MILLS: That’s 18-year-old Champion Marquez.
MARQUEZ: We, like, fought back and basically beat them. Kind of like the “Avatar” movie.
MILLS: He’s Cheyenne, and he’s been volunteering here this week, working security, helping elders and setting up tepees. Plus learning a lot more about this battle than he has in school.
MARQUEZ: I learned that we just fought them. I didn’t know that we actually, like, gathered up as a tribe, like, of 2,000 people and then we fought.
MILLS: When Custer and his troops were tasked with dealing with, quote, “hostile Indians,” they thought disbanding the camp would be easy.
CHRISTOPHER EAGLE BEAR: It was the biggest victory that our people had against the United States government.
MILLS: That’s Christopher Eagle Bear. He’s Sicangu Lakota of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe. He said the allied tribes hoped this would be the final blow to the U.S. military and that the government would leave them alone.
EAGLE BEAR: They realized that they couldn’t destroy us head-on. So after that, they did the next best thing that you could do to tear apart a nation. And that was take away their children.
MILLS: Just three years later, the first federal Indian boarding school opened in Pennsylvania. Hundreds more followed, beginning a century of abuse that attempted to erase Native ways of life.
EAGLE BEAR: A couple of my grandfathers, my grandmothers, my uncles and aunties – they were all products of boarding schools. And over the course of that, we lost one thing. And that was our identity. That was our spirit.
MILLS: Eagle Bear is here today with his grandfather, reclaiming that identity. Together, they’re the main event organizers for their tribe’s camp, where they’re surrounded by the sounds of drumming and kids playing traditional games like lacrosse.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILDREN: Four. Five.
ASHLEN BONSHIRT: We’ve been planning this for roughly eight months now. So it’s very heartwarming to see everyone that actually showed up and that’s here.
MILLS: That’s Ashlen Boneshirt. She and her friend Mylah Gabriel are both 18 and members of the Sicangu Youth Council.
MYLAH GABRIEL: You know, this is us telling people we’re still here, you know, and we’re proud. And we’re not just, you know, hiding.
MILLS: They’re here with Dominique Harris (ph). She’s the youth council’s project coordinator.
DOMINIQUE HARRIS: The fact that they’re so young and they’re here now – it just gives them the perfect opportunity and space to learn about the history of this battle, why it’s important to our people and the effect that it has on us to this day.
MILLS: As we walk through the encampment, we weave between tall canvas tepees that stretch to greet Montana’s big sky. That’s when we meet Gaby Strong. She’s Sisseton-Wahpeton and Mdewakanton.
GABY STRONG: This camp is full of youth and young people. I think one of the important messages here is this is a commemoration of a victory from 150 years ago, but our victories are still possible today.
MILLS: As important as it is for the young people to be here, Christopher Eagle Bear says he’s grateful that his grandfather can be here, too, surrounded by a new generation learning and celebrating their cultures.
EAGLE BEAR: I wanted my grandpa to see this before he made his journey so that whenever he goes to the spirit world, he’ll be able to tell all those leaders, like Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, that we’re still here. And you guys did a great job.
MILLS: Eagle Bear says he feels a duty to set that same example for future generations.
More than 20 years ago, the state of Oklahoma sued 14 major poultry companies, arguing that waste from their birds was harming a scenic watershed. That legal story still drags on today. Its resolution could set a precedent for agricultural pollution cases in other states. Anna Pope reports from member station KOSU.
ANNA POPE, BYLINE: The Illinois River is a weird little backwards waterway, running east-to-west from Arkansas into northeast Oklahoma. The area around it is known for its beauty and its poultry houses. Gerald Hilsher moved here for college in the 1970s and fell in love with the river and the lake it feeds.
GERALD HILSHER: It was a place where scuba divers loved to go because they could see 15, 20, 30 feet underwater because the lake was so clear.
POPE: But that’s not the case anymore. He’s dedicated his career to serving on Oklahoma’s Scenic Rivers Commission and other environmental task forces. The area is also primed for chicken producers, like Steve Butler, who runs Green Country Farms.
STEVE BUTLER: I was born on a chicken farm. My granddad had a chicken farm before that. So then I was raised in chickens.
POPE: They both love the area, but the lawsuit between poultry companies and the state of Oklahoma has put their goals at odds. Millions of chickens and turkeys live in the watershed, defecating all the while. Poultry litter makes good fertilizer but contains a lot of phosphorus that runs off the land and into the waterway. There, it causes excessive algal growth that clouds the river and chokes out other water life. Butler acknowledges past pollution problems, but he’s been working with conservation groups to fix them, like voluntarily shipping his litter out of the watershed.
BUTLER: We all got along and worked together to try to improve the Illinois River. That was the goal.
POPE: It’s been the goal for decades, ever since Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson sued the poultry companies in 2005.
DREW EDMONDSON: I was asking no money. Just stop what you’re doing and figure out some way to get rid of the waste, like every other industry in the United States of America.
POPE: It took five years for a federal bench trial to start against the 14 poultry companies. The largest – Tyson Foods. That was 2010, but the judge did not rule until 13 years later in 2023, saying poultry companies are responsible for the pollution and need to come up with a plan to clean it up. But after years of negotiation, the parties could not agree on a plan. So the judge drew up his own cleanup order to the poultry companies last December. But then, some of the companies finally negotiated settlements with Oklahoma officials. They mapped out a less expensive cleanup plan. Edmondson, who is no longer a plaintiff in the case, didn’t like the settlements.
EDMONDSON: Had they agreed to that 20 years ago, I’d have been tickled pink. Right now, I wish it was more.
POPE: That’s because he says 20 years of legal fees and continued pollution have piled up. The judge agreed. He rejected the settlements in March. That means environmental advocates like Hilsher and producers like Butler are still in limbo. Tyson Foods said it would not renew grower contracts in the watershed unless the settlements went through.
BUTLER: I’m sitting here wondering if I will get to stay in business. And so it’s frustrating that way.
POPE: Tyson and other defendants who settled did not respond to requests for comment. Neither did federal Judge Gregory Frizzell, who’s handling the case. Legal experts say this case could serve as a template for other states who want to sue over phosphorus pollution. For Hilsher, who wants to restore the watershed, the wait is worth it.
HILSHER: Well, this has taken a lot of time and effort, and I just had to trust Judge Frizzell that he has moved it along as quickly as he could.
POPE: Multiple appeals are pending from both the poultry companies and the state of Oklahoma. Meanwhile, the people who love the river and those who rely on poultry production are left waiting for a resolution.
For NPR News, I’m Anna Pope in Watts, Oklahoma.
SIMON: And that story was field produced by Graycen Wheeler.
Mary Beard was about 5 years old when her mother took her to the British Museum and they saw a 4,000-year-old piece of bread in a display case. The curator noticed that young Mary had to jump up to see it, so he opened the case, took out the bread, and held it out for her to see. And that set off a career studying ancient Greek and Rome for Mary Beard, professor at Cambridge and the Royal Academy, classics editor of The Times Literary Supplement and author of many admired books on the ancient world. Her new book “Talking Classics: The Shock Of The Old” is bold enough to ask, why do we continue to have this fascination with the ancient world – Greeks, Romans, Caesars, Sophocles and worlds more? Mary Beard joins us now from Cambridge in the U.K. Thanks so very much for being with us.
MARY BEARD: It’s great to be with you.
SIMON: What do you think got stirred up in you that day that you saw this bread excavated from the ancient kingdom of Thebes?
BEARD: Partly, it was that sheer amazement, that wonderment, that I could be allowed to get so close to something that was both so impossibly old and also amazingly ordinary. We’d been on the same trip to see the Egyptian mummies, which kind of every curious 5-year-old, I think, wants to see. But this ordinary piece of bread just hit the spot for me even more than the mummies.
SIMON: And yet, you say in this book, you don’t love the Greeks and Romans any more than virologists love viruses.
BEARD: No. I don’t love them. You know, I think, in all kinds of ways, they are vicious, brutal people I don’t want to replicate. But they are unfailingly interesting. What they write is really interesting, even when I don’t agree with it.
SIMON: I’ve got to say, one of my favorite sections is when you talk about a graffiti next to a lavatory…
BEARD: (Laughter).
SIMON: …In the ruins of Herculaneum, destroyed by a volcano. Maybe I should ask you, the distinguished scholar, to repeat what it says.
BEARD: Well, it’s in very simple Latin. This is some graffiti which must have been written just a few days before the eruption destroyed the town of Herculaneum, which was kind of Pompeii’s twin sister town. And then it says what did he do? Hic cacavit bene. Now, I have to say I’m sorry. There is no other way of translating hic cacavit bene than had a good crap here. He’s boasting, really, boasting about his bowel movements. Now, at that point, you think, I feel quite close to that world.
SIMON: There’s also a baby’s cradle nearby, isn’t there?
BEARD: A wooden cradle. And in this cradle, there was the skeleton of a little baby, and the little baby was sleeping, resting. And a pretty cynical, hard-hearted person touching that cradle and knowing that it didn’t survive. That’s tear-jerking for me.
SIMON: You write, at one point, the Greeks and Romans have never stopped staring us in the face. How so?
BEARD: I’m sure that there is not a day since 19 BCE, when the poet Virgil died, when someone has not been reading his great epic poem, “The Aeneid,” telling the story of the foundation of Rome. So I think, you know, you can’t really go out in the world and avoid the Greeks and Romans. I mean, look, we’re all expecting Christopher Nolan’s movie soon. It’s adapting a book that was composed almost 3,000 years ago. You can’t ignore them. You know, they are there. You read James Joyce’s “Ulysses” – he couldn’t have done that without “The Odyssey.” You look at the Coen Brothers’ “O Brother, Where Art Thou?” Right? You can’t do that without “The Odyssey.” We might not like the ancient world. I don’t think I like it very much, but we can’t just ignore it, or we have an impoverished view of our own culture if we try to ignore it.
SIMON: How do you make the argument which you hear nowadays that the classical world is nothing like the world right now, they were the embodiment of imperialism, privilege and exclusion, and they’re nothing to learn from?
BEARD: They are that, but I think there are some aspects about the modern world which replicate that. I’ve never wanted to say that the classical world offers us ready-made lessons to solve our own problems. But whatever I morally think about some of the things that the ancient world, in general, stood for, I do know that the ancient writers faced the same kind of problems that we face.
SIMON: Given your status as a classicist, are you often asked to weigh in on current leadership all over the world?
BEARD: (Laughter) I am. The commonest question I get from journalists is, which Roman emperor is Donald Trump most like? And I don’t think there’s much point, actually, in comparing any modern political figure to any single Roman emperor. You know, Donald Trump is not like Nero. Sorry, everybody. He’s not. You can see in the way that power operates in the modern world, the way populist power operates, the way autocrats or would-be autocrats operate, you can see some of the structures of that back in antiquity.
And I – you know, one thing would be leaders’ heads on the coins goes back to Julius Caesar. Autocratic leaders want to see their heads on the currency. In Britain, we’re very used to our monarchs being on the currency. But Julius Caesar was the first person to do this, and he didn’t come to a happy end.
SIMON: Mary Beard, her new book “Talking Classics.” Thank you so much for being with us.
BEARD: Scott, thank you. It’s been a great pleasure.
Even before the Supreme Court ruled Thursday that President Trump has broad power to deport hundreds of thousands of migrants living legally in the U.S. under temporary protected status, David Bier feared the U.S. was slipping toward a demographic cliff.
“We’re destined to be there, in short order, there’s no question,” Bier said. “We’re already seeing a situation where most counties in the United States had more deaths than births.”
An expert on population and immigration at the libertarian Cato Institute, Bier believes the U.S. is beginning to look more like China, Italy and South Korea. Those nations face rapid aging and population decline.
U.S. birthrates have been declining for decades. There are far too few children born each year to maintain a stable population.
Until last year, high rates of foreign immigration largely offset that trend. But for the first time since the 1930s, during the Great Depression, the U.S. now faces record low birthrates and low numbers of migrants at the same time.
“Our higher birthrates of a century ago are not coming back. There’s no way to have a sustainable fiscal and economic situation that doesn’t involve immigration,” Bier said.
Trump’s legal fight to end temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of Haitians, Syrians and others living in the U.S. legally is only one part of a wider administration effort to squeeze immigration.
The Supreme Court also ruled this week that the administration has authority to block most asylum seekers from entering the country. Federal agents have also conducted raids in cities across the U.S., to accelerate deportations.
Last month, Trump issued an executive order that could make it harder for many migrants living in the U.S. without full legal status to use banking and financial services.
Many immigration opponents see these changes as progress. In a statement following this week’s Supreme Court decisions. A spokesman for the Federation for Immigration Reform said Trump should have full authority to direct who enters the U.S.
“Our immigration laws are written to be pro-enforcement, not anti-enforcement,” said FAIR’s Christopher Hajec.
But according to Cato’s Bier, Trump’s policies are already reshaping the demographics of communities, meaning there are fewer workers, consumers, taxpayers, and children in schools.
“If you’re not allowing immigration, you’re going to have [an aging and] a declining population and that creates all kinds of problems,” Bier said.
Economists say that without migrants, the number of young workers paying into Social Security will fall more rapidly; schools in many areas will close; and the number of young families having children will decline.
Census data already shows big changes to U.S. population
The immigration decline under Trump is dramatic. In 2024, roughly 2.7 million foreign migrants entered the U.S., according to the Census Bureau. This year, census experts predict that number could drop as low as 300,000. Some demographers believe the U.S. may be reaching a point where more migrants are leaving than entering.
Impacts of this massive shift on America’s wider population are already emerging. Studies by the Census Bureau, the Congressional Budget Office, and the Federal Reserve all point to a more rapidly aging national population under Trump.
Population growth in the U.S. fell by half in 2025 from the previous year, with five states losing population. Census data shows the total number of young Americans, those under age 25, is already falling nationwide.
William Frey, a demographer at the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution, described last week’s Supreme Court rulings as “alarming.” He believes without robust foreign immigration, more states will quickly see their populations stagnate or decline.
“Not just in big immigration states, but in places that have relatively small numbers of immigrants, you know, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska — those states require immigrants to get any population growth,” Frey said.
Even before Trump’s policies curbed immigration, the U.S. population was expected to decline later this century. Experts say low immigration rates will cause that downward trend to happen much sooner.
According to Frey, the U.S. has time to reverse course. But he believes the Trump administration is committed to lowering both legal and illegal immigration over the long term, a policy he described as dangerous.
“This is as clear as the nose on your face,” he said. “You’ve got to have this growth in the younger population if you’re going to survive. Immigration is a key part of that going forward.”
“America’s doors are closed”
Stephen Miller, White House deputy chief of staff for policy, speaks with reports at the White House, Thursday, June 25, 2026, in Washington. (Jacquelyn Martin | AP)
The Trump administration sees this very differently, describing foreign migrants not as people who sustain state populations and economies, but as a social burden and a threat.
“America’s doors are closed fully to asylum seekers,” Stephen Miller, one of Trump’s top White House policy advisors, said on Thursday.
Speaking with reporters, Miller described the Supreme Court rulings as a victory and said ending birthright citizenship for the children of migrants born in the U.S. is the next step.
“This country doesn’t have a future if we don’t end birthright citizenship,” Miller said. Justices are expected to rule on birthright citizenship as early as next week.
This kind of opposition to both legal and illegal immigration is now widespread among conservatives, said Cato’s David Bier, who worked as a Republican congressional staffer on immigration policy.
He told NPR that when he talks to conservatives about the economic and demographic risks of closing the country’s doors to migrants, many answer with a cultural argument. “[They] would rather have a declining population of ‘true Americans’ than have an economy kept afloat by people who don’t share [their] values,” Bier said.
A little more now on immigration. Mara gave us the political angle. NPR’s Brian Mann brings us this look at the demographic concerns about the administration’s push to limit immigration to the U.S.
BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: When the Trump administration began cracking down hard on foreign migrants, David Bier, an expert on population and immigration at the libertarian Cato Institute, says it moved the U.S. toward a demographic crisis, similar to those playing out in countries like Italy and South Korea.
DAVID BIER: We’re destined to be there in short order. There’s no question we are already seeing a situation where most counties in the United States have more deaths than births.
MANN: For the first time since the 1930s – the era of the Great Depression – the U.S. now has historically low birth rates and historically low foreign immigration at the same time. Bier says the Trump administration squeezed the flow of foreign migrants in large part by targeting those here legally. The result, he says, are fewer workers, fewer consumers, also fewer taxpayers and fewer kids in schools.
BIER: Our high birth rates of a century ago are not coming back. There’s no way to have a sustainable fiscal and economic situation that doesn’t involve immigration.
MANN: Demographer William Frey, at the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution, is also alarmed. He says at first he hoped Trump’s anti-immigrant efforts would be fairly brief, not large enough in scale to slow the long-term pattern of high immigration. But the Supreme Court’s rulings this week impact hundreds of thousands of people now living in the U.S. legally. If birthright citizenship for the children of migrants is stripped, it would affect millions more. This is happening at a time when, because of historically low birth rates in the U.S., the population of young people under age 25 was already falling.
WILLIAM FREY: This is as clear as the nose at your face. You’ve got to have this growth in the younger population if we’re going to survive, and immigration is a key part of all of this going forward.
MANN: Under Trump, the decline in immigration is dramatic. In 2024, roughly 2.7 million migrants entered the U.S., according to the U.S. Census Bureau. This year, census experts predict that number could drop as low as 300,000. Some demographers believe the U.S. may actually be reaching a point where more migrants are leaving the U.S. than entering. Studies by the U.S. Census Bureau, the Congressional Budget Office and the Federal Reserve all point to a more rapidly aging U.S. population under Trump. Population growth in the U.S. fell by half last year, with five states losing population. Frey thinks more states will join that decline.
FREY: Not just in big immigration states, but in places that have relatively small numbers of immigrants – you know, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska. Those states require immigrants to get any population growth.
MANN: The Trump administration sees this very differently, describing foreign migrants not as people who sustain state populations and economies, but as a social burden. Stephen Miller, one of Trump’s top policy advisers, celebrated the Supreme Court’s rulings on Thursday.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
STEPHEN MILLER: America’s doors are closed fully to asylum seekers.
MANN: Speaking with reporters, Miller said ending birthright citizenship for the children of migrants born in the U.S. is the next step. This country doesn’t have a future if we don’t end birthright citizenship, he said.
David Bier worked as a Republican congressional staffer on immigration policy before joining the Cato Institute. He says when he talks to conservatives about the economic and demographic risks of keeping migrants out and forcing migrants with legal status to leave, most answer with a cultural argument.
BIER: We would rather have a declining population of true Americans than have the economy kept afloat by people who don’t share our values.
MANN: Experts say if extremely low immigration becomes the new normal in the U.S., it would remake the fabric of the country, with the U.S. Census Bureau predicting population loss of tens of millions of people by the end of this century.
MILLSTONE TOWNSHIP, N.J. — One recent day in central New Jersey, the grass field around a historic farmhouse was transformed into a Gen. George Washington Revolutionary War encampment, with tents, people in costume and families taking photos.
Suddenly, an unmistakable figure appeared on horseback, wearing a long navy wool coat and a black tricorn hat.
“March!” yelled a man, as a drum and fife (piccolo, actually) struck up a Revolutionary battle tune. Three people dressed as soldiers lined up for review by Washington, then fired shots from long muskets.
Scenes like these have played out across the country as America celebrates its 250th birthday and more people look for ways to take part.
“Anything that pops up, I try to go to,” said Robin Fox, who’s lived nearby for 21 years but never been to this site.
The semiquincentennial has meant a banner year for historical reenactors and interpreters, especially those who portray the ever-popular Founding Father. Some have driven hundreds of miles a week to meet the demand. And whether it’s a hobby or a career, they believe George Washington’s life holds important lessons for today, especially at a time of such divided politics.
“Exactly what Washington predicted”
John Koopman III looks straight out of a history book. It’s not just his angular face and hair tied back with a ribbon, but his entire tall frame, as he learned from the tailor who made his military costume.
“Where my sleeves fall and my wrist, the size of my chest, where my breaches fall, is all identical to Washington,” he explained. “That made my day.”
We met under a shade tree as he stood next to his beloved horse, Bear. Koopman started this hobby nearly three decades ago, when his Connecticut town put on a reenactment to mark the 300th anniversary of its founding.
“Of course, now my wife regrets it, but she said, ‘You know, John, you should join one of these units,’” he said. “And now she’s sitting there, ‘What was I thinking?’”
He liked the Revolutionary War time period and its sense of chivalry, so he stuck with it. The hobby inspired him to learn how to ride a horse. In 2006, a friend said he should try playing Washington because he looked so much like him.
Koopman used a small inheritance to pay for an appropriate saddle and the costume, which cost several thousand dollars each. For an authentic version of Washington’s uniform, he commissioned a friend who’d been a tailor for the first president’s historic home at Mount Vernon.
John Koopman III dons his replica of George Washington’s military uniform before the event in New Jersey. He said the tailor told him his dimensions are nearly the same as the general’s, and “that made my day.” (Michelle Gustafson for NPR)Koopman used a small inheritance to purchase a period-accurate saddle and specially tailored costume. (Michelle Gustafson for NPR)
Since then, Koopman has performed in a film shown at Mount Vernon and multiple other documentaries. He even branched out to write a historical novel on the Revolutionary War.
He retired a year ago from his “regular job” at an alternative energy company and is reenacting full time these days, while the heightened interest lasts. He and his horse recently set a personal best with three separate events in one weekend.
“We had to get in the trailer and go to a different place,” he said, adding that Bear “did very well.”
Koopman concedes Washington was hardly perfect. He and his wife owned hundreds of slaves, freeing those he owned personally in his will. Still, he finds Washington’s call for national unity more relevant than ever. Especially his warning that political parties would put their own needs before those of the people.
“And then you get the situation you have today,” he said, where lawmakers oppose good legislation simply because it’s proposed by the other party. “That’s exactly what Washington predicted would happen.”
Koopman’s manager, Brad Fay, has had a lifelong fascination with Washington because a distant ancestor was an officer for him during the Revolutionary War. The family inherited a famous painting of the first president, “and it was literally over my shoulder, you know, for my entire teenage years,” he said.
Fay believes the significance of America’s birth, with its ideals of freedom and equality, has the power to unite.
“It’s the one story we all subscribe to,” he said, “and so I think it’s more important than ever for us to feel a connection to our founding.”
A surging hunger for that has kept him and his small team of reenactors busy: He booked 31 events from May through July 4. Beyond the battlefield, a popular experience is an evening dinner with Washington, which often includes the traditional 13 toasts for 13 colonies.
“They would usually be given to Washington, and then Washington would give a return toast,” he said.
Comfort looking back in time
The central New Jersey encampment included a hospital tent, farm animals and a table where a woman demonstrated how laundry was done. Visitors also packed inside the farmhouse where Leslie Bramlett portrayed the enslaved cook Hannah Till, who traveled with Washington.
“She ends up being freed, and she still stays with George Washington, for seven years of the war,” she explained to one family.
Bramlett is part of a broader push to tell the stories of those who made Washington’s success possible but were long ignored.
Reenactor Leslie Bramlett, playing George Washington’s enslaved cook Hannah Till, stands for a portrait after preparing a display that represents the women of color who played a pivotal role in Washington’s army. (Michelle Gustafson for NPR)
“There were 850 women and children encamped with George Washington at Valley Forge, the beginning of the war, and then that number grows,” she said. “So every time you see soldiers, you should remember that there are women and children following them.”
Outside the farmhouse, Anthony Privetera said he brought his 7-year-old son to the day’s event “because you always learn about history, because if not history repeats itself.”
Down the hill, Lee Ann Folk said she became more focused on history in the past few years. Looking back in time helps her feel less worried about today’s political divides.
“We’ve been through hard times,” she said. “So it helps to calm the soul, to know that we’ve been there and we’ll get through this.”
Sharing Washington’s ideals with a new generation
A few hours south, at historic Mount Vernon, more fife and drum music heralded a recent ribbon-cutting for an updated exhibit. And another person portraying General Washington was on hand to work the crowd.
“Would you have changed anything in your life?” asked a middle school student on a class trip from Bettendorf, Iowa.
“I would not have stood for a second term,” replied Doug Thomas, in full military uniform.
Thomas stayed in character as the students asked about his horses and his religion, and he explained how he made a point of attending different houses of worship to show that “bigotry had no place in America.”
He also poked gentle fun at the shorts all the students wore, when he said at one point, “The thought is as absent as the rest of your trousers!”
And there was laughter when several middle schoolers from California tried to explain a “selfie” as they gathered around the Founding Father and mugged for the camera.
First-person interpreter Doug Thomas poses for a photo at Mount Vernon’s education center on June 11. The students, from El Dorado Hills, Ca., had fun trying to explain a “selfie” while he stayed in character as George Washington. (Tyrone Turner/WAMU)
This is a career for Thomas, who is not a reenactor but a first-person interpreter. He’s played more than 20 people in theater and at historic sites in Philadelphia and “aged into” Washington about seven years ago.
The 250th anniversary amped up his workload. In the past week, he’d driven hundreds of miles to various gigs, including one at a financial group in New York City. There, he talked about lessons from Washington the businessman, such as the importance of branding.
“Branding is literally because he used a branding iron to brand the barrels of flour that he sold at his mill,” he explained. “They said ‘G. Washington,’ so you knew you were getting the finest quality flour that was out there.”
Thomas said the nation has not always lived up to the ideals of Washington and its founding documents. But he sees his work as helping to pass them on to new generations, so they can keep building on what’s come before.
“The fact that we have a government by the people, for the people, is really absolutely astounding,” he said. “And we just need to make sure that we inform the populace that they are, in fact, in charge.”
Doug Thomas poses for a portrait as Gen. George Washington in front of the Mount Vernon mansion in Virginia. He’s made a career as a first-person interpreter and aims to pass along the ideals of America’s founding to new generations. (Tyrone Turner | WAMU)
Also on hand for the ribbon cutting was Mount Vernon CEO Doug Bradburn, a scholar of early American history. He pointed out that Washington’s government, too, had political division.
“Even in his own Cabinet, he had people that hated each other,” Bradburn said, “and he constantly had to remind them, until we are governed by angels, we have to allow for differences of opinion.”
Transcript:
SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
It’s a banner year for people who portray George Washington. America’s 250th birthday has brought more events, new crowds for Revolutionary reenactors and interpreters. NPR’s Jennifer Ludden caught up with a couple to see what they hope comes of all the attention.
JENNIFER LUDDEN, BYLINE: On a recent day in central New Jersey, a grass field is transformed into one of General George Washington’s Revolutionary War encampments. There are tents, people in costume. Families mill about and snap photos.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: One…
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Let’s do three.
(SOUNDBITE OF CAMERA SHUTTER CLICKING)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: …Two, three.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Thank you.
JOHN KOOPMAN III: You’re welcome.
LUDDEN: Then an unmistakable figure appears on horseback.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: March.
(SOUNDBITE OF DRUM AND FIFE MUSIC)
LUDDEN: Washington in long navy coat, tricorne hat, makes his way over to review the troops. Well, three soldiers who form a short line. Dotted across the field, there are also farm animals, a hospital tent. One woman demonstrates how laundry was done. Another is set up inside a historic farmhouse to portray the enslaved cook who traveled with Washington. Locals who’ve come to soak it all in say they wanted to mark the nation’s Semiquincentennial.
ROBIN FOX: We’ve lived here for 21 years and never came to this house.
ANTHONY PRIVETERA: Because you always learn about history. Because if not, history repeats itself.
LEE ANN FOLK: All of a sudden, in the last maybe four years, I’m a history person (laughter). My mother did bring us up that way anyway, but even more so these days.
LUDDEN: That’s Robin Fox, Anthony Privetera and Lee Ann Folk. She says looking back in time makes her feel less worried about today’s political divides.
FOLK: We’ve been through hard times, so it helps to calm the soul to know that we’ve been there, and we’ll get through this.
LUDDEN: Behind the farmhouse, I meet the man of the moment. And it is uncanny talking to someone who looks straight out of a history book. John Koopman III, dressed as George, stands under a tree next to his beloved horse, Bear.
KOOPMAN: So this is the big guy.
LUDDEN: He’s gorgeous.
KOOPMAN: Oh, thank you.
LUDDEN: Koopman retired a year ago from his regular job at an alternative energy company. He’s full-time reenacting these days, while the heightened interest lasts. One recent weekend, he and Bear set a personal best for busy.
KOOPMAN: Three different events altogether. You know, we had to get in the trailer and go to a different place.
LUDDEN: Koopman started this hobby nearly three decades ago, when his Connecticut town marked its 300th anniversary.
KOOPMAN: And so they had a reenactment in town. And then, of course, now my wife regrets it. But she said, you know, John, you should join one of these units. And now she said, what was I thinking?
LUDDEN: He likes the Revolutionary time period and its sense of chivalry. So he stuck with it, and that’s what led him to learn horseback riding. Then, in 2006, a friend said he should try playing Washington because he looks like him. Koopman used a small inheritance to pay for the costume and a saddle, several thousand dollars each. And he commissioned a friend who’d been a tailor for Washington’s historic home at Mount Vernon. It turns out…
KOOPMAN: Where my sleeves fall at my wrist, the size of my chest, where my breeches fall is all identical to Washington. So when I learned that, it made my day (laughter).
LUDDEN: Koopman has since appeared in a film at Mount Vernon and other documentaries. He admits Washington was hardly perfect. He and his wife enslaved hundreds of people, freeing those he owned personally in his will. Still, Koopman thinks his message as president holds lessons for today, like his warning that political parties would put their own needs before those of the people.
KOOPMAN: And then you get the situation you have today. Let’s say a legislator has good legislation. Well, the opposing party will say, even though it’s good legislation, I’m going to oppose it. So that’s exactly what Washington predicted would happen.
(SOUNDBITE OF DRUM AND FIFE MUSIC)
LUDDEN: A few hours south, I stopped by a ribbon cutting for an updated exhibit at historic Mount Vernon.
DOUG THOMAS: Three cheers for George Washington and a revolutionary life. Hip, hip.
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Hurrah.
THOMAS: Hip, hip.
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Hurrah.
THOMAS: Hip, hip.
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Hurrah.
LUDDEN: Another George Washington is on hand to work the crowd.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #1: Did you know that you were, like, about to die, when you died?
THOMAS: (As George Washington) I am quite healthy and hale, Miss.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #1: OK. Well, I…
THOMAS: (As George Washington) My secretary of state?
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #2: Aaron Burr.
THOMAS: (As George Washington) No. No. Thomas Jefferson.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #2: I knew that.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENTS: Oh. I knew that.
THOMAS: (As George Washington) You did not.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #2: OK.
THOMAS: (As George Washington) You did not.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #2: Yeah. Yeah.
THOMAS: (As George Washington) The thought was as absent as the rest of your trousers.
(LAUGHTER)
LUDDEN: This is a career for Thomas, who’s not a reenactor but a first-person interpreter. He’s played more than 20 people in theater and at historic sites in Philadelphia and says he aged into Washington about seven years ago. Just this past week, he drove hundreds of miles to various gigs, including at a financial group in New York City, where he talked about lessons from Washington the businessman, like the importance of branding.
THOMAS: Branding is literally because he used a branding iron to brand the barrels of flour that he sold at his mill. So they said, G. Washington, so you knew you were getting the finest quality flour that was out there.
LUDDEN: Thomas says the nation has not always lived up to the ideals of Washington or its founding documents, but he sees his work as helping to pass them on to new generations so they can keep building on what’s come before.
THOMAS: The fact that we have a government by the people for the people is really absolutely astounding, and we just need to make sure that we inform the populace that they are, in fact, in charge.
LUDDEN: Back at the exhibit, an older couple complains to Thomas about corrupt politicians. He tells them that’s nothing new. Then more schoolgirls want a selfie.
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #3: But what he said in the hall…
THOMAS: (As George Washington) A self-portrait…
UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT #4: That is an awkward angle.
THOMAS: (As George Washington) Because it is poor artistry.
LUDDEN: They crowd around the Founding Father and mug for the camera.
Jennifer Ludden, NPR News, Mount Vernon, Virginia.
