A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin: First a confession: I have never watched a WWE match in its entirety. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the athleticism and the performance, it’s just not my thing. But there is something about John Cena I’ve never been able to shake.
Yes, he is a wrestling legend, but he has built a career as an entertainer that transcends the ring. The first time I saw him lead a cast was the 2019 family movie “Playing with Fire” and his rapport with kids in that film didn’t seem like acting at all. The man contains multitudes!
He co-stars with Eric Andre in his newest film, “Little Brother.”
Transcript:
RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Have your feelings about death changed over time?
JOHN CENA: Yes. I will die. I always used to say it out loud, like, as a young person. Like, oh, I’m never going to make it till I’m 40. That was just cannon fodder.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Now my perspective has changed that we all die. We are all going to die. And it gives me gratitude towards the now. It allows me to reflect with great feelings. That’s why I don’t have a void for retirement. I have love and gratitude and thanks.
MARTIN: I’m Rachel Martin, and this is WILD CARD, the show where cards control the conversation.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Each week, my guest answers questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. They’re allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is John Cena.
CENA: I look back on – like, I had 23 years of being a pro wrestler.
MARTIN: Yeah (laughter).
CENA: What? That’s my vocation.
MARTIN: John Cena is a WWE legend, but he has built a career as an entertainer that really transcends the ring. The first time I saw him lead a cast in a movie was the 2019 family film “Playing With Fire.” And his rapport with kids in that movie did not seem like acting at all. The man contains multitudes. His newest film is called “Little Brother,” and I am so very happy to welcome John Cena to WILD CARD. Hi, John.
CENA: Thank you. Glad I could play today.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Here we go – memories. I’m going to hold up three cards. And you pick, John, randomly. One, two or three?
CENA: Has anyone ever asked you to pick?
MARTIN: Sometimes. We call that a dealer’s choice.
CENA: Dealer’s choice.
MARTIN: OK.
CENA: I like this ’cause the dealer can see all the questions.
MARTIN: I’m going to go with two.
CENA: OK.
MARTIN: When’s the first time you really got in trouble?
CENA: My older brother, Steve, was performing in his second-grade play at a central elementary school in West Newbury, Massachusetts. I, before the show started, climbed up on the stage and said, I’m Superman, and jumped off into a bunch of steel chairs. And there’s a pretty cool picture of me peering up from one of the steel chairs with two huge…
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: …Black eyes.
MARTIN: Black eyes.
CENA: And it is just – I think that was the first time I worried everyone but got in trouble as well.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: That’s the first time I remember that.
MARTIN: You can draw such a clear line between that moment and what you ended up doing for a living.
CENA: Imagine that.
MARTIN: I mean, there’s – imagine that.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Funny that. There’s the performance gene – percolated early…
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: …It seems…
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: …And being able to use your body…
CENA: Thinking you’re invincible (laughter).
MARTIN: …And not being afraid…
CENA: Yeah, yeah.
MARTIN: …Yeah, thinking you’re invincible…
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: …And being comfortable with risk.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Was that emblematic in general of your childhood?
CENA: I think so. I think so.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I’ve been using the term, like, courageous ignorance a lot. You know, a little bit of – certainly, a lot of curiosity, but I think that the courageous ignorance of not knowing enough…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Has led to a lot of interesting experiences.
MARTIN: It gives you permission or you’re giving yourself permission to just – to be bold, to try things. And hopefully, you don’t get burned, but I imagine the risk reflex will kick in eventually and protect you from actually doing damage to your body.
CENA: I think that’s well said, and even in the realm of you do know your limits. Like, you learn your limits. I have experienced that it’s far more effective for me to learn my limits rather than to be told them. And I think that courageous ignorance, that blissful ignorance of, like, not even having the conversation about limits…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Allows you to find them…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …In real time.
MARTIN: Yeah. You came from a big family. I mean, you were one of…
CENA: One of five.
MARTIN: …Five brothers.
CENA: All boys.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: All boys. So were your parents…
CENA: Everybody always – everyone always does that – all boys? Oof.
MARTIN: (Laughter) Well, I’m the mother of two boys. I love being the mom of boys. Boys are great. I am – they are a total treat, adventure, craziness, all the things. But it does force one to think about what boundaries you need to put up, you know, just for safety. What – were your parents – what was their parenting strategy with you? I mean, were you different from your siblings?
CENA: So I think their strategy was like, just make sure they live, you know? And I will say…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …I really – I tip my cap to my parents for not protecting me so much and, I think, the rest of us because it allowed us to live. It allowed us to kind of figure it out.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
CENA: And there wasn’t – I mean, we did get in a lot of trouble, but no one was ever severely injured, and we learned a whole lot of lessons.
MARTIN: Yeah. That’s the thing I’m starting to say to my kids as they get older and they have more independence. I’m like, go out. Be in the world. Make mistakes. Please call me if someone’s getting hurt or about to get hurt or you yourself…
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Like, just I want there to be open communication, and that is the hard line – like, safety for yourself and your buddies.
CENA: I think that’s well said. Sometimes, though, like, I – again, so, like, drawing the limits of safety – I don’t know. I’m – I think I’m…
MARTIN: Oh, God.
CENA: I benefited that there were very few limits of safety.
MARTIN: Really?
CENA: Yeah. It was just a different time. And through that, I got to go out and skin my knee with, like, no one around to…
MARTIN: Yeah. I get it.
CENA: The most important thing was just hanging out and playing with your friends.
MARTIN: OK. Next one. One, two or three?
CENA: Gosh, I want to go dealer’s choice on all these.
MARTIN: You can’t.
CENA: So…
MARTIN: John, that’s a different show.
CENA: OK. It’s your game. They’re your rules. And if you say I can’t, I can’t. So you already chose…
MARTIN: OK.
CENA: …Two. I will say you choose between one and three.
MARTIN: Oh, my gosh. OK. OK, I’m going three. What’s something your parents taught you to love?
CENA: Imagination. My dad was a huge theater buff. He directed small plays. He had aspirations to do larger things and then had a bunch of kids. My mom met my dad in the theater. He’s directing a play where she was involved, and, you know…
MARTIN: Wow.
CENA: …A theater romance started.
MARTIN: I love that.
CENA: And they formed a family out of that. Both of their roots are in imagination and performance.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And they taught us to love imagination. It was always embraced. I think my parents struggled to see parenting from the same level in a lot of cases and values…
MARTIN: You mean…
CENA: …From the same level in a lot of cases. But the one thing they wholeheartedly agreed upon was embracing of imagination.
MARTIN: Did your parents support the imagination part of your wrestling career? You know what I mean? Like, in WWE, there’re – I mean, there’s all the athleticism, but there’s this real performance part of it. Did they see that as a creative act? Did they appreciate it as the creative act that it was?
CENA: So my dad – oddly enough, like, wrestling was and has always been our through line, like, our conduit. He was one of the first homes in West Newbury to get cable television in, like, the mid-’80s…
MARTIN: Whoa.
CENA: …So we could watch more wrestling.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: And I’m serious. Like, he – I never played catch with my dad. He wasn’t really into sports, which was – that was different because growing up in New England, a lot – it’s very sports-focused.
MARTIN: Yeah, for sure.
CENA: We watched wrestling.
MARTIN: Yeah. You watched wrestling.
CENA: So we used to beat the tar out of each other as kids, and when it was allowed was we had a ring and a wrestling league in the basement. When I say basement, I mean concrete and poles.
MARTIN: Yeah. Oh, my God.
CENA: And the poles were like the ring posts. So we would wrestle…
MARTIN: Wow.
CENA: …Next to the furnace that was heating the house. Like, that’s what I mean by, like, not a lot of governance as long as we’re…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …OK kind of, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.
CENA: My dad fully embraced the imagination of WWE in pro wrestling. My mom…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Didn’t quite understand it. Yeah.
MARTIN: Did she ever come around to it?
CENA: She did. She did. She…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Man, this last year, the retirement tour, she was – she loved it. Absolutely loved it and, like, really let me know how proud she was and really did her best to try to understand everything. Yeah.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: But for the longest time, she just didn’t want me to get hurt.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: You know?
MARTIN: I get it. OK. Last one in this round.
CENA: Yeah. I got to choose one ’cause that’s the one that hasn’t been chosen.
MARTIN: All right. I like your style. Where was the first place you lived when you felt truly on your own?
CENA: Ah, Cushing Academy in Ashburnham, Massachusetts, as a 15 1/2- or 16-year-old. Yeah.
MARTIN: Boarding school?
CENA: Yeah. Yeah.
MARTIN: OK. Tell me about that. Was that your idea, their – your parents’ idea?
CENA: So my older cousin has kind of always been an inspiration in my life. And especially at that age, I kind of wanted to do all the things he was doing. And he applied to Cushing Academy because a friend of his was already in. So I’m like, I want to do all the things you’re going to do. We’re…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I’m going to get accepted. We’re going to get accepted. We’re going to go together. I’m going to live at school. This is going to be great. He didn’t get accepted and didn’t continue a path. I also didn’t get accepted. But in the school letting me know that I wasn’t accepted – I was, like, a C, D student, and I was a freshman at the time – the dean of students said, hey, on your tour, we really saw potential in you. If you can take your grades from C’s and D’s to A and B’s, and if you can become a two-sport varsity athlete this year, we’ll take you.
MARTIN: Wow.
CENA: And I did. In my sophomore year, I kind of turned my ship around. I now had academic purpose and switched…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …My grades from C’s and D’s to A’s and B’s. I varsity lettered in baseball and football. I went back to do the whole interview process again, the whole application process again, the tour of the school, sitting down with faculty. And finally, they said, hey, you’re in. And my dad was like, I’m broke. And they were like, we will figure that part out, but we…
MARTIN: Wow.
CENA: …Think you’d be an asset just by your perseverance alone. And I got a chance to do – I got a chance to have an opportunity I never thought I would in life.
MARTIN: So this is so interesting because I don’t – we don’t know each other. We’re just meeting here now. But based on what I’ve followed from your career and interviews I’ve read of you, you do seem like a person with such a strong work ethic, and you work a lot and you give, like, 100%. And this seems like maybe that – was this one of, like, the origin stories of where that started, is all of a sudden there became, like, this goal that you attach to outcomes that maybe could help your future trajectory? Or you – like, were you like that when you were a younger kid, too?
CENA: I don’t know. I think the origins might be my, like, family base. My mom has a work ethic that I inspire to have. My dad is – at times, he could be labeled maybe a workaholic. Like, effort – we were never shy in the effort category in the Cena household…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Ever.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
CENA: I think this was just a thing where – again, courageous ignorance. I didn’t even know these schools existed.
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: I had a perfectly good social life where I was. And obviously, being a C, D student, my focus wasn’t in the classroom. I showed some athletic promise. And then someone was like, hey, we think you can do this. Do you think you can do this? And I think I just enjoy hearing that.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And from then on, I was like, man, I think I can do this. I’ll do this.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: You know, I just needed the right mentorship, I guess.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: We’re going to pull out of the game for a couple minutes.
CENA: Yeah. Let’s talk some movies.
MARTIN: Let’s talk some movies. So you have a new one out…
CENA: Yep.
MARTIN: …Which we need to say because there are just so many. Like, you do work a lot of – as we have indicated.
CENA: I’m grateful for the opportunity.
MARTIN: But the one I’m talking about today…
CENA: Right.
MARTIN: …(Laughter) Is “Little Brother.” This is with Eric Andre.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: I’m going to attempt to summarize this plot. You are reunited with this guy, who Eric plays. It is a guy you mentored when…
CENA: Yep.
MARTIN: …Your character was, like, in high school. And then you sort of forgot about him.
CENA: Yep.
MARTIN: And he did not forget about you. And so he, like, tracks you down and finds you at a different stage of your life, and shenanigans ensue.
CENA: That’s correct.
MARTIN: So Eric Andre, had you worked with him before?
CENA: I was a special small guest on “The Eric Andre Show,” and that’s ’cause I expressed to the folks that connect people that I was a huge fan. I loved how freewheeling the show was. It’s…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: It’s amazing. It’s – it is raw.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: We keep in touch. Ever since I – I was in touch with him before I did the show.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: We stay in touch. He said, I have this project. I want to send it to you. I read it in a day and said, I’d love to do it. The script is great. It’s going to be in the Netflix family. They’re – I know…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: So I know the people putting it out. You know, I…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: We’re going to be OK. This script allows you to shine. Like, this is for you, man. Like, you’re going to be great in this, and the part is great for me. Let’s assemble a good team and go out and try to make a great movie. And that’s…
MARTIN: I love it.
CENA: It was as short as that.
MARTIN: So their fraternity is at the center of the movie – right? – like, the idea of brotherhood, your relationship with Eric’s character. And you also have your actual brother in the movie, played by Chris Meloni. And that’s a lovely thing. I mean, it’s a funny movie, right? Like, but it’s not supposed to hit you over the head with some big moral message. But there is something really tactile in there about brothers, and that clearly had to have been a draw for you as a person with many brothers.
CENA: So I think that’s interesting you say that the movie’s not supposed to hit you over the head with a moral message. As an entertainer, I want to just entertain audiences. I never want to tell…
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: …Audiences how to feel. I don’t think that’s…
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: I don’t think that’s right. Even if you’re a performer trying to send a message, if you’re an artist trying to put out art with a message and someone appreciates your art but interprets their own message, your art is out to the world. That’s perfectly OK if you see it and you like it for different reasons. You know, we’re not supposed to hit you over the head with messaging in pro wrestling, so to speak, but there’s…
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: I invest in every opponent of, why are we fighting? What is our story? And it can be, like, the struggle in our fraternity, the lack of fraternity. I’m frustrated. I’m embarrassed. You start there, even though no one gets it. They just go into the audience, and they whip themselves up into a frenzy, and everybody has fun.
For me – this story, for me, looking through my lens, is I’m a big believer in you choose your family. And love isn’t just simply granted because you say the – you have the same last name.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Love is a very powerful thing that – I just don’t throw that word away. And for this movie – and this is where I read a script, and I’m like, I think my talents, strengths and gifts could be well served here, especially with good coaching and good castmates. To me, this was my perspective of the family you choose.
MARTIN: Do you like using your body this way? I mean, you have built so much of your career on your physical body. And throwing it around in the ring is one way to use it as an instrument, and acting’s a totally different way. And especially physical comedy, you get to flex that muscle – no pun intended – in this movie. But is it fun for you to inhabit your body in this different way in acting? You know what I mean?
CENA: Let’s make no mistake about it. For me, playing dress-up is fun.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And that could be doing nothing, just simply the director wanting to catch introspection and their coaching note is, I need you to do nothing. Be elsewhere. I’m just going to roll. Just be someplace else.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: All of it is fun. It’s all imagination. And it is whimsical and creative and – I don’t know. But that’s the beauty of it for me. And those things aren’t for everybody. But when you talk to folks in the professional field, they like talking about that stuff. And…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Yeah, all that stuff is fun. To be able to be a physical storyteller, like Chaplin or Jackie Chan or, you know, Keaton, like, that’s so…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Cool. That’s a universal language. People can turn the volume down, and people around the world…
MARTIN: Totally.
CENA: …Can laugh with you…
MARTIN: Totally.
CENA: …And at you. And that’s fun.
MARTIN: Right, right.
CENA: So I like it all. It’s all fun.
MARTIN: So you made this big change recently. I mean your retirement…
CENA: Ah, yes.
MARTIN: …From the WWE…
CENA: Yes.
MARTIN: …Just this past December. Huge deal for WWE. Huge deal for your fans and for you. I mean, 17 world championships?
CENA: Seventeen. We ended with 17.
MARTIN: Seventeen.
CENA: That means I lost it 17 times, too. That’s…
MARTIN: (Laughter) I mean…
CENA: …A great lesson on the inevitability of failure.
MARTIN: Right. But did you – I mean, it has to have created a void that you were anticipating for a long time that would exist in your life. Did you know intellectually that you were just going to double down on Hollywood to fill that void, or is there still a grief in there?
CENA: So neither. You speak in an absolute that there has to be a void.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I don’t think that’s true.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I started very early in my career. And I went on record to say, when I’m a step slower, I’m going to step away. And the reason I said that is ’cause I saw performers hit a certain age, and their performance just didn’t match the rest of the show.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And that’s what people remember. They don’t remember the moments you want them to. They’ll remember you at the end, when you were too slow for the show. So I learned that lesson early on. And I’m not perfect with keeping my word, but I believe it’s the strongest currency I got. And I also know, like – I don’t know how many people face mortality. And I knew getting into this it was going to end, maybe ’cause I had to face almost getting fired once. But I wasn’t in this to hang around forever. And, I mean, instead of the void of it’s not there anymore, I look back on – like, I had 23 years of being a…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Pro wrestler.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: What? What?
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: That’s my vocation, like…
MARTIN: Yeah. Right.
CENA: …That I got to be a traveling carnival performer. Like, that’s…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And I made that my career.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: How cool is that? So…
MARTIN: People paid you to do it. That’s crazy.
CENA: Can you – I can’t believe it. It brought us together.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
CENA: Like, this is amazing. Instead of a void, it’s more like gratitude.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I’m not trying to replace that chapter with anything. And I wouldn’t even plan it the way I planned it if I hadn’t come to peace with it. I’m still filled with joy, love, curiosity. There’s so much to do in the world. There’s so much to do in life. Each day is mine to do whatever I want. I certainly was not like, acting, wrestling – this one just takes over. ‘Cause I don’t control the opportunities I get in acting. It’s not like…
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: …You know, I got a long cigarette holder in an old art deco Hollywood place going, like, ah, put this kid in the picture.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: I’m just waiting – I’m waiting for the phone to ring, like everybody else. And one day, it’s not going to ring, and I know that. So I love life, you know, and I’m grateful for the run that I had. I continue to be a member of the WWE family and try to contribute wisdom and pass on tricks of the trade where I can, where I’m useful. And when I’m not, I step aside and let the show go run its course ’cause that’s what happens. The show was there before me. It is there after me. I should just be grateful to have a spot on the timeline, and one that is incredible. Twenty-three years and 17 championships? I will take that.
MARTIN: John Cena, I want you to write a book of inspirational vignettes because that was just lovely.
CENA: Oh.
MARTIN: That was a lovely thing you just said about how to…
CENA: I don’t know. I just…
MARTIN: …Navigate your life and how to close chapters and feel grateful and not feel regret or longing for a different version of yourself, you know?
CENA: I’m happy with the self that I see. Like, I’m happy with it.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And I also know that that self is going to evolve. I know the things that I’m lucky enough to be able to do now at 49, they’re going to change. If life expectancy takes its course and nothing – no force majeure gets in the way, I’m going to be a different person at 55. I’m going to be a different person at 60, 65, 70…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …As you go along.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And I’ve – I guess I’ve had my share of looking back, going, like, man, I used to be able to. And now I just am like, man, I get to.
MARTIN: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: OK. Round 2. Three new cards – insights. One, two or three?
CENA: Dealer’s choice.
MARTIN: Oh, my God. John Cena, I can hear my editor being like, what? Are we going to let this stand? It’s John Cena.
CENA: I’m picking one – dealer’s choice.
MARTIN: Oh, OK. I’m going to ask this one. How comfortable are you with being alone?
CENA: Very. Very.
MARTIN: Are you?
CENA: That is not how I want to live my life. I want to live my life as a loving member of a team. I also cherish my alone time. I think in a sense of longing for the person or people I love, I think absence does make the heart grow fonder in a lot of cases. And I think you need – for me, I need to not forget who I am, and a lot of that…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Comes with alone. Now, when I say alone, it could be – heck, it could be, like, 20 minutes in the sauna…
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: …Or five minutes in cold water or stretching by myself for an hour at the end of the day or waking up before everybody just to enjoy, like, 45 minutes with a warm cup of coffee. That’s what I mean by alone time.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Am I comfortable with no love and connection in my life? No. I would not want that life.
MARTIN: For some reason, I imagine just the life of a WWE wrestler being a lot of planes.
CENA: Correct.
MARTIN: And being – you’re with people. There’s a lot of people managing you. But I imagine it being kind of lonely in some ways.
CENA: How so? Let’s talk about that.
MARTIN: Well, I guess I’ve never been a wrestler.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: You’re such a – you’re a rarified kind of person. And you’re the top of the pyramid. You’re the talent. And everyone’s managing, manage you. And there’s a lot of pressure and expectation on you. And sometimes that, I imagine, could feel lonely. But I guess if that wasn’t your experience, maybe because you’re always traveling with other people who are at your level, and they are genuinely your friends?
CENA: There is. There’s – even still remains. Although the management side has increased a little bit, there still remains a deep fraternity and sisterhood within all performers. It was a lot less management than you think, where we’re responsible for a lot. That’s why I loved the profession. It – no one manages you, pretty much. It’s a lot like stand-up comedy.
MARTIN: Really?
CENA: If you’re starting out, like not a stadium tour sell out stand-up comic. I mean like, even at the highest level, with me performing in sold-out arenas, it’s still like an upstart stand-up comic. You are responsible. So I like the fact that it creates a sense of independence.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: It also creates, you know, that sense of fraternity, of you have your brothers and sisters who are going through the same thing with you. And you can…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Bond and have fun with them. And then, I learned this through failure as well. Like, my wife, she knew nothing about wrestling. And we met by chance. She’s not in the entertainment business at all. She’s an engineer by trade. I say she’s the brains of the operation.
MARTIN: I love this. Just for listeners, so you know, I think you guys just met, like, in real life just, like, in a restaurant.
CENA: Like an old-fashioned, what are you doing here?
MARTIN: Like the old times (laughter).
CENA: Hey, can I have your number? That sort of thing.
MARTIN: That’s so cute.
CENA: And through my previous failures in trying to be loving, I would carve out these safe spaces for myself. And it basically led me to be able to have the freedom to live a double life. And no one really got to know the full me. And in doing so, I probably didn’t know the full me because I was one version of me and then another version of me.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And there was a lot of selfishness of, like, man, I’m in, like, my late 20s. I want to kind of be a rock star. Like, this is all fun. Like…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Let’s just see where it goes. So I put myself…
MARTIN: Yeah. Not great for a long-term, steady relationship.
CENA: But my fault. Like, I put myself there. A long-term – long-term and steady, I don’t know. There’s always ups and downs, right? A long-term loving relationship involves giving your whole self to the team, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah. And making yourself vulnerable, letting that person see…
CENA: This is all. This is it.
MARTIN: …The 360 of you, right?
CENA: Yes. You still interested? Because this is it.
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: It’s not just, like, John Cena in the ring.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: You know, awesome, strong, amazing performer guy. It’s all of you, your flaws and your insecurities and the whole shebang.
CENA: Yeah. And I just – I struggled with a lot of that. And a lot of it was literally I just didn’t want to mess up this dream. I was able to try to connect. But I was always – it was always my own downfall of, like, I want to be a WWE superstar more than anything else.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Now I want to be the best husband to my wife that I can, more than anything else. So that – like, if that’s the thing, OK, make all decisions based off that. My past is make all decisions based off of WWE. And that led me to tremendous opportunity in WWE. It just – something has to give, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah. Three new cards.
CENA: OK. I can’t do dealer’s choice.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: You chose No. 1. You can choose between two and three.
MARTIN: (Laughter) I’m going over here. How big of a role does fear have in your life?
CENA: So it’s definitely there. As a human being, it’s definitely there, I think managed. Certainly, like, fear of whatever life will deal. Gosh, I simply have been very, very lucky in life.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And every day that goes by, I realize more and more exponentially how lucky I am. So I think the fear of what’s the worst that could happen wanes to, man, let’s go out and try to do something good. As far as, like, fear of spiders, ledges, you know…
MARTIN: Are you afraid of spiders and ledges?
CENA: And snakes, heights.
MARTIN: Are you?
CENA: Yeah. But then again, like, even then I’ll sit and ask myself, so why am I afraid of this? Like, why am I…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Skeeved out?
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: You know, like I think the ledges thing is – the ledges and heights are the same thing. I’m a professional fall down man. So I know, like…
MARTIN: But, dude, didn’t you have to stand up on, like, the pillars of the ring? That’s high.
CENA: Yes. But that’s also like, I’ll be able to walk away from this. But then you also know if it was like, oh, if it was three more feet, I can’t.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
CENA: So, again, like, I think the ledges and heights thing is like, oh, wouldn’t want to take that spill because I know what taking a spill feels like, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I think a takeaway is, like, we certainly all have fear. And we should have fear.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I tend to try to talk about mine and figure it out, you know? Man, I could have the – like, a fear of mine or a trigger of mine is not feeling heard.
MARTIN: Not feeling heard?
CENA: Yes. Yes. Man, that puts me in defense. Whew. I just – and I’ve worked hard to create far more of a balance there, but I think it’s like I started not really as anybody’s first pick as a professional and then somehow made it to every cut. And then finally, it took years for people to kind of listen to me, even though I thought I had good ideas. And I ended up having some ideas that were good and kind of did good not only for myself, but everyone involved. So maybe there’s a fear in there that, like, oh, I’m not heard, or I’m not enough, you know. But I think this is something a lot of folks struggle with, and a lot of folks think. I just think…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …It’s OK to have fear.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you approach it from curiosity – yeah – as…
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: …It sounds like you are, too. It’s like, why is this happening?
CENA: Why is this happening?
MARTIN: Why am I feeling this way?
CENA: Yep.
MARTIN: Yeah. OK. Last one in this round.
CENA: We will do number two.
MARTIN: One, two, three. Two. Has ambition ever led you astray?
CENA: Uh, so I’m going to ask you to use more words. What do you define by…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Astray?
MARTIN: Well, it’s a great pushback. Have you ever done a thing because it was going to get you somewhere in your career, and you didn’t like who you were when you were doing it. I guess that’s the root of that question.
CENA: So the answer to that is yes, and I’m faced with those all the time. I think we all are. Those are the – those are my most teachable moments, and those are the ones I reflect on with guilt, borderline shame.
MARTIN: Really?
CENA: Because you define your values, and you define, you know, how you want to live. And if an opportunity comes where you’re like, oh, man, this could be really good, but it’s not who I am…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …People see through that immediately. Immediately. And then you feel guilt of, like, IOUs or paper IOUs are cool, but the currency you have is your integrity – is who you are. And, you know, everything and everybody’s got a price is a real comment. You just got to to be accountable. That weight’s heavy. It’s heavy.
MARTIN: Is there an example you would feel comfortable sharing?
CENA: I think one time I tried to get involved with an entrepreneurial social network startup. And I didn’t tell my boss. And we talk about everything. This was like, man, we’re going to do this together. And in potentially being part of this startup, I would – my name’s John Cena, so I would essentially be leveraging intellectual property.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: That’s a team decision. And…
MARTIN: This is when you were wrestling, yeah. Yeah.
CENA: And I love and trust my boss. He’s far more than my boss.
MARTIN: Sorry, John, is this your agent or, like, the…
CENA: No, no…
MARTIN: …Head of WWE?
CENA: …This is Vince McMahon.
MARTIN: Oh, oh, the big boss.
CENA: The big boss.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Yes.
MARTIN: Vince McMahon. Yeah.
CENA: I was just trying to get more money, simply. I have my own philosophy on social networks. I’m very limited in my use by design. So it’s not something I’m interested in, not too fond of, like, limited access stuff. And this was a curated idea that seemed nice. But I looked at the projections. And man, my boss found out, and to be honest, he was great. He was great. He, like, walked me through the – OK, this is the choice you’ve made. Let’s walk through all the tentacles…
MARTIN: The repercussions.
CENA: …Of what might happen. And in a moment where it was a direct violation of trust to somebody I had worked years – and he invested years in trusting me, too, so it was a moment where he could have just gone nuclear because, you know, trust takes years to build and moments to destroy. And he didn’t. He didn’t. He had patience and tolerance. And I think possibly as an entrepreneur himself, maybe tried to put himself in my shoes and walked me through it, and, like, it took five minutes or less to realize, like, I’m such an idiot. And I immediately called the company back and said I’m out. This isn’t for me.
MARTIN: And isn’t it a lovely gift to have people in your life, whether it was Vince or your wife now, who can see around your blind spots, right? Like, we – sometimes we can’t see what’s good for us. And you need other people who you love and trust to be like, I don’t think this is you.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: I don’t think it is. I think…
CENA: I really do like that perspective. Also, we can’t see it all. The term blind spots, I think, is incredible. And everyone has a different perspective. And the folks I have around me, no one shares the same. Like, it’s almost as if it’s a – if we all say yes to an idea, it’s a no ’cause something’s wrong. Like, we’re all missing something.
MARTIN: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
CENA: Our conversations are all, have we seen it from this side? Have we seen it from this side? And…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …The environment that like, yo, that’s OK – whatever your perspective is, it’s OK. That’s why we have the time to talk about this.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: So that’s – I love the term blind spots. I think that’s very appropriate.
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MARTIN: John Cena, we’re at Round 3.
CENA: OK.
MARTIN: Beliefs.
CENA: All right.
MARTIN: Three new cards.
CENA: All right.
MARTIN: One, two or three?
CENA: Starting with dealer’s choice.
MARTIN: Starting with dealer’s choice.
CENA: That’s the – this is the last one I’ll use, I promise.
MARTIN: This is so – I feel so much power. It’s – and no one really gives me this kind of control. I’m really into it. OK. Let’s see. Wow, these are all pretty good. All right. I’m going to ask this one.
CENA: Sure.
MARTIN: It’s heavy. How do you think your life should be judged?
CENA: However people want. I think they have the freedom to have their own perspective. And each day, I try to work hard to be the person I say I am for my own sound sleep. But as far as people judging how I live my life, I wouldn’t want them to tell me how to live mine. And they have earned the freedom by waking up each day to do or say whatever they want about me.
MARTIN: And that stuff falls off you? I mean, have you always been able to…
CENA: No, of course not.
MARTIN: …Keep that kind of – no (laughter).
CENA: No. I’m not – that is not easy. And…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Again, I know what I signed up for. There’s a whole lot…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Of negativity out there. There is. And anytime – you know, personally, anytime I feel, you know, you try to get something going, there’s always a criticism out there. Yet, that’s the world I signed up for. I am a performer to put my art out into the world, or I am a businessperson who needs to put product out for consumer consumption. I’m not allowed to tell them how to think about it. They’re allowed to tell me how to think about it so I can change it and curate it according to supply and demand. Like, that’s the fun of playing dress-up. It’s not all the highs. You got to deal with that stuff.
So it’s – no. I – that stuff does not roll off my back. I love it because it allows me to be open to criticism. It allows me to consider the source. It allows me to deal with negativity. It keeps me grounded. It keeps me humble. It humiliates me. It keeps me vulnerable. If I am struggling with it, I can lean on people I love and say, like, my feelings are hurt, and this is a safe space to talk about that. It is not easy, but – and it doesn’t roll off my back, and it’s there. It’s part of the existence. But I don’t care how people judge me.
Sorry. I should say, I do care because if I had apathy towards life, I think I would lose curiosity. People have earned the right to judge me however they want. I think that’s better said.
MARTIN: I get it, yeah. Also, it’s just very liberating to be at that stage, you know?
CENA: God, it’s a lot of…
MARTIN: Age. Age – it helps with age…
CENA: I think…
MARTIN: …Let’s just say.
CENA: …Time on the track helps, and…
MARTIN: (Laughter) It does. How old are you?
CENA: I will be – I’m 49. I’ll be 50 next year.
MARTIN: It’s great over here. Let me just tell you.
CENA: Oh, I can’t wait.
MARTIN: On the other side of 50…
CENA: I can’t wait.
MARTIN: …It’s pretty good.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Yeah. It’s pretty good. I think you’re going to like it.
CENA: I will…
MARTIN: Three new cards.
CENA: I will take No. 3.
MARTIN: Three. I thought you were going to tell me that you were going to invite me to your birthday party, and then you didn’t say that, so then I was disappointed.
CENA: It’s still a ways away, so I’m still working on the guest list. You still got a couple of questions left to lose your invite.
MARTIN: It’s true. It’s true. It can all go off the rails in the last two questions, and my invitation gets lost in the mail. OK. One, two or three? Sorry. You picked. What did you pick?
CENA: Three.
MARTIN: Three. Have your feelings about death changed over time?
CENA: Yes. I will die, and I think about that often. And I never – you know what? I always used to say it out loud, like, as a young person, again, having fun with life. Like, oh, I’m never going to make it till I’m 40, or if I make it till I’m 40, I’ve overstayed my welcome. That was just cannon fodder and to do things that were, like, dopamine hits. Like, that is just a way to say that to be like, this is OK to do ’cause I’m not going to make it till 40, right?
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: Now my perspective has changed that we all die. We are all going to die. And it gives me gratitude towards the now. It makes me excited for things down the road. It allows me to reflect with great feelings. It’s why I don’t have a void for retirement. I have love and gratitude and thanks. If my day gets a little gritty, I’m alive, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: When we start saying, like, what’s the worst that could happen, you could not be alive, you know?
MARTIN: Right.
CENA: And I know life will deal me a whole set of challenges, and the challenges will get different exponentially as the days go on and the birthdays pass. I think about my mortality often, and I encourage folks to do more of that, and not from a morbid sense – from a factual sense.
MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.
CENA: We all think we got all the time in the world. And I think when you realize you don’t, it helps you appreciate the time you have, at least from my perspective.
MARTIN: Totally. Yeah, for sure. Same. I also wonder – I wanted to ask you about your involvement with the Make-A-Wish Foundation.
CENA: Sure.
MARTIN: Because especially in the…
CENA: Bonus question for you. Go for it.
MARTIN: …Under the architecture of this question in particular about death, though, because these are kids you – first of all, you have, like, the Guinness World Record or something of most Make-A-Wish visits. I mean, it’s really incredible, John, the amount of time that you’ve given to kids who are having a hard struggle. And I imagine some of those kids who you have spent time with have died, have passed on. And that is the toughest of things to watch children suffer. And I wonder how that has impacted your view of living and your thoughts about dying.
CENA: So that’s a great question. Again, there is not a better chin check on, like, how bad are my problems? – than to go into someone really fighting a – climbing a steep hill. And when that person is, like, a young person, and to see them so full of joy and excitement and hope, even with that steep climb, it has made a world of difference in my life, even when I didn’t understand why it was making a world of difference.
MARTIN: What do you mean?
CENA: I think at a younger age, I very much appreciated always being involved with Make-A-Wish. It was only as I began to truly lean into mortality – I would say last decade – that it really had a profound impact on we do have a select amount of time, and that’s beyond our control, period.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And you can still have joy, and you can still have excitement, and you can still be curious, and you can still have an imagination. And you can be grateful for all those things.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: And that’s – man, a lot of the questions are kind of like leading-the-witness questions of, like, oh, this must be tough for you or, man, it must’ve been so hard. My experience with Make-A-Wish was incredible – incredible. Getting a lot of letters after the visits, explaining circumstances – those are emotional to read. It doesn’t slight the moments that I’ve had and the excitement that I’ve shared. Those were so fun.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: I don’t know. They just – it was a stout reminder to be grateful for life and a…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …Easy, easy way to be like, man, whatever I’m carrying, I just need to lighten that ’cause…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: …My hill’s not as steep as this one, and they are rocking. They are here to have fun.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: So let’s see if we can change the lens.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: You know, inspiration through those and meeting so many young minds who are so inspiring to me and families who are so inspiring to me, they don’t even realize it.
MARTIN: Yeah. Last one. Last one.
CENA: OK.
MARTIN: One, two, three. What you got?
CENA: I want to say dealer’s choice, but your producer’s going to kill me. We’ll go No. 2.
MARTIN: (Laughter) What truth guides your life more than any other?
CENA: That’s a good one. The powerful play goes on – we get to contribute a verse – is pretty good. And then, again, all…
MARTIN: The power of play lives on. Oh, that’s nice.
CENA: The powerful play goes on. We get to contribute a verse. “O Me! O Life!” Whitman. So truth – I don’t know. Like, so truth in itself is – it’s possessive. Truth is constantly changing. We’re constantly finding out more. As the facts change, I change my mind. What we know today will be outdated tomorrow. And tomorrow, today’s answer is wrong, but it’s right right now. And that’s OK. That’s fine. We don’t have to – we can evolve. We can change. I think that’s the truth. The only truth is the constant of change and the fact that we’re mortal.
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: You know, until those things are fixed, that’s it.
MARTIN: (Laughter) It just is.
CENA: The only constant is change, and we are all…
MARTIN: Yeah.
CENA: We are all renters.
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MARTIN: OK. John Cena, we end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine.
CENA: OK.
MARTIN: OK? In the memory time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It’s not a moment you want to change anything about. It’s just a moment you’d like to linger in a little longer.
CENA: Sure.
MARTIN: What moment do you choose?
CENA: Oh, my goodness. My wedding day.
MARTIN: Yeah?
CENA: The week was great. The lead-up was great. The day, I – it felt like it lasted a while. Man, it was just such a great day. Such a great day. And…
MARTIN: I’m sure there were many moments. Can you give me one?
CENA: Yeah. Us eating chocolate chip cookies, way in the cheap seats, just looking at everybody having such a good time because our mission statement was, this day is about us. It’s about allowing our friends to hold us accountable if we hit tough times as a team. And in doing that, we are going to be as hospitable as we can and try to create an environment of love and joy ’cause that’s – if it starts with us, it’ll just permeate. And towards the end of the night, we’re just each eating a wonderful chocolate chip cookie, looking at each other. And we were like, they’re having a lot of fun out there. This is such a good moment.
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MARTIN: John Cena. You can see him in the new film “Little Brother.” It was such a pleasure to do this with you. Thank you.
CENA: Thanks so much.
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MARTIN: Hey, thanks so much for listening. It has been a little bit since I’ve asked, so I’m going to ask again. If you love WILD CARD, please leave us a rating and review wherever you listen. It really helps other people find our show. And, hey, it also makes our team feel great. We really appreciate it.
This episode was produced by Mitra Arthur and Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by Andie Huether. WILD CARD’s executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni, and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us at wildcard@npr.org. And we will shuffle to deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.
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